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fandomsecrets2012-10-14 03:46 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-10-14 03:46 pm
[ SECRET POST #2112 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2112 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 102 secrets from Secret Submission Post #302.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-15 04:09 am (UTC)(link)And half the time this stuff doesn't even seem to be a case of interpreting characters and pairings in different ways. It just comes off as blatantly ignoring all the parts of canon that people don't want to deal with. And some of those parts are what make the pairings interesting and draw people to them in the first place! The fact that Dean and Cas have a very up-and-down relationship and can be very antagonistic with each other gives them this really interesting dynamic and makes it really fun to imagine how they'd play off of each other in certain situations. They've been through a lot of shit and not all of it is good, and they've both fucked up along the way, but all of that makes their relationship seem more real. The same thing goes for Stiles and Derek (who, yeah, are basically ALL combative friction on-screen at this point, like you said). They're reluctant allies at the best of times right now, but the snark and the way their personalities play off one another is really fun to watch. So... why erase all that?
And, yeah, I do think a lot of Dean/Cas shippers were just tired of SPN and needed a new pairing to latch onto. Not that that means Sterek isn't a great pairing; their dynamic is really interesting! It's just not quite what a lot of fanon has built it up to be. But then again, I know that a lot of people who were involved in the fandom and even some of the fic writers early on (and perhaps even still, I dunno) hadn't bothered to actually watch the show because they'd assumed it would be shitty, so their knowledge of canon were based on gif sets they'd seen on Tumblr or fic that they read or what friends who'd watched the show said. Which, you know, those things are great, but they're not exactly a substitute for the actual canon. And I know people who read fic for shows that they don't watch, but when people try to write for shows that they haven't watched and have only read fic for, it can kind of conflate or spread some of those fanon ideas.
... holy shit, that was long. My apologies. Apparently I have a lot of feelings about this subject.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-15 10:39 am (UTC)(link)I agree with everything you said, and quite frankly Stiles as pack mother is the one thing I absolutely despise in fanon. He can be as complete a dick as Derek and that's one of the reasons I like the character. There are plenty of stories that people could write about S/D (or D/C) without ignoring their canon personality, and it's rather depressing to see all these fics where you just wonder if the writer has even bothered to watch the show.
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-15 06:22 pm (UTC)(link)I'm currently waiting for S/D fic to reach the level that D/C is at now, where there's a ton of OOC crap, but there are still enough gems out there to act as shining beacons of hope and counteract the bad. Or, you know, to get to the point that I recognize author's names and know who to seek out and who to avoid. And also whose rec lists I should actually trust. Haha. Oh, and for at least one other pairing to get big. At least with SPN there are two major pairings (not counting RPS) and quite a few minor pairings that get a decent amount of love.
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-15 03:13 pm (UTC)(link)Cas is a warrior of god and a pretty bad ass dude, but so many people seem to overlook that in favor of having him be the damsel in distress or someone who's there to be perfect and fix all Dean's problems through true love. Dean's not exactly good at love and romance or dealing with his feelings, but a lot of people tend to write that off so they can just have Dean and Cas get to the fluffy soul mates with a house and two dogs bits.
Oh my God, this drove me endlessly crazy! I admit to having a sweet tooth and indulging in fluffy idfic, but it becomes annoying when it's almost every fic in the fandom. Yeah, there is an aspect of Castiel's canon character that involves staring dewy-eyed at Dean as though Dean is a cupcake and Castiel is Cupcake Dog, but all the other parts of his characterization in which he is a cranky self-righteous dickbag who doesn't understand why you can't stab children get swept under the rug. Let's be real, in canon Dean and Cas are both total shit at healthy communication (hence all the wonderful tragedy at the end of S6) and I see no reason why they'd improve just because penises became involved.
he said that Scott should just let Derek die
He said that, but then he also saves Derek whenever he has to, so I tend to think that Stiles can talk like a dick without any genuine malevolence to back it up. Still, as much as fanon paints him as having a Jesus-like compassion for others, and as much as he does canonically have intense loyalty for the people he cares about, he's not nearly as considerate of those he's not personally close to as people would like to believe. So you're right on the ball in pointing out their character flaws. Stiles is reckless, impulsive, sarcastic not only in his sense of humor but in the way he judges the people around him, a liar. Derek is a total idiot who has said something emotionally genuine maybe once in the entire show and who runs his life on a platform of arrogance and emotional barriers. And like you said, I love these characters as much as I do because they're as flawed as they are amazing, and therefore the version of the ship I love the most is one in which these flaws are given precedence and fully explored in terms of how they'd affect a romance between the two. I think it's reasonable to expect fic to change their dynamic once they actually learn to like each other, but that can be done while still preserving the canon issues that realistically wouldn't evaporate in the face of mutual affection, like Derek's complicated sexual history and the ways their values clash.
So... why erase all that?
I couldn't agree more.
And yet a lot of fanon portrays him as being the world's most awesome alpha and Stiles as being the pack "mother" who loves everyone unconditionally and just... it boggles my mind.
lolol Stiles as pack mom is another one of those idfic tropes I indulge in, because my God it's just so freaking cute. But no, it isn't consistent with canon at all. Stiles isn't all that graceful socially; he doesn't get along well with Derek's pack I don't think Derek's pack would respond well to him trying. I can't really see Stiles coming over to make everyone spaghetti for movie night.
I've never really understood even reading fic for a show you haven't watched, never mind writing it. :/ Wouldn't most of the references confuse the hell out of you?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-15 09:44 pm (UTC)(link)I admit to having a sweet tooth and indulging in fluffy idfic, but it becomes annoying when it's almost every fic in the fandom.
I can so sympathize, as I have an intense weakness for fic involving kids. Like, even when I know it's ridiculous (and a lot of it is), I still feel compelled to read it because BABIES AND SMALL CHILDREN. I have read a lot of terrible things that I probably wouldn't have bothered with otherwise because of this. But that kind of stuff is like the fic equivalent of a sometimes food. It can be awesome and there are times I crave it and need it in my life, but like candy and ice cream, I can't live on that alone.
Part of me kind of suspects that the amount of fluff in the D/C and S/D fandoms might have something to do with the otherwise dark tone of the shows and people wanting a pick-me-up or a break from that. I'd say it's probably more true of SPN than TW, but who knows. And TW can be pretty damn dark, although they're much less inclined to KILL THE CHARACTERS than SPN is. I can actually understand it to a point, but as you and I and other people here have pointed out, there are ways of writing the lighter stuff and still staying in character. And if the whole counteracting the tone of the show thing is what's happening, it also kind of baffles me a bit because you'd have to be a complete and utter masochist to watch a show like SPN if you didn't like slightly dark, painful things. The show is basically the chronicles of how the lives of Sam and Dean and everyone they come in contact with are terrible (and then they die... sometimes repeatedly). And maybe the fluff is just an understandably necessary temporary reprieve, but... hmmm. Something to ponder.
Let's be real, in canon Dean and Cas are both total shit at healthy communication (hence all the wonderful tragedy at the end of S6) and I see no reason why they'd improve just because penises became involved.
Exactly. I honestly kind of suspect that their communication skills would, if anything, get worse once penises were involved. Dean tends to use sex as either an escape or a distraction, and even in the (very, very) few serious relationships we've seen him have, he's not terribly good at being open and forthright. He and Cas both have this tendency to use distractions to keep the other in the dark out of some fucked up sense of martyrdom (and just because they're horrible at feelings), and sex is a pretty darn good distraction. And yet so many authors just sort of hand wave those aspects of their personality and make sex and romance the magic pills that cure all their emotional insecurities and communication issues. Sex is great and all, but no sex is that great. Even for well-adjusted people, loving someone and having a history with them doesn't guarantee perfection or automatic happiness. You still have to continue to put in effort to make sure the relationship works. And I think we can all agree that Dean and Cas are pretty far from well-adjusted, so this is like doubly true for them.
Yeah, there is an aspect of Castiel's canon character that involves staring dewy-eyed at Dean as though Dean is a cupcake and Castiel is Cupcake Dog
Has someone made a comparison photoset of this? If they haven't, they should get on that. And now I'm going to be imagining the cupcake dog every time Cas stares at Dean soulfully. Lol.
I tend to think that Stiles can talk like a dick without any genuine malevolence to back it up.
I totally agree. I don't think Stiles would ever actually follow through on most of the things he says, but they are still dick things to say, and there are a lot of people in fandom who just seem to ignore them because they want Stiles to be the perfectly selfless friend and caretaker to everyone. And even though the dick things he says are just a defense mechanism (sarcasm being his only defense, after all), it's still definite evidence that he doesn't care for everyone equally or without condition. I think Stiles is a good guy at heart, and he's done a lot to help Derek and Jackson, which say a lot about his loyalty to Scott and his ability to do the right thing when the chips are down, even if it might not be the easy action or the one that he wants to take. The fact that he's not a totally selfless being and that he does have those selfish moments and missteps along the way are part of what makes him super interesting as a character.
Also, like you pointed out, Stiles does tend to prioritize the people that he cares deeply about - like Scott and his dad and, to some degree, Lydia - over people that he doesn't know as well. And there's nothing wrong with that, since it's a pretty human reaction, but I think a lot of people do misinterpret his loyalty to those closest to him into a blanket sort of blind loyalty to Derek and his pack in particular and... no. I think there's the potential for Stiles to have a really interesting relationship with Derek and his pack, but even Derek doesn't have much relationship with his pack at the moment, lol. Also, Stiles seems to me to be a lot more cautious in general about opening up to other people and risking rejection or being hurt. If anything, Scott is the one who actively reaches out to others, especially in season 2.
Stiles isn't all that graceful socially; he doesn't get along well with Derek's pack I don't think Derek's pack would respond well to him trying. I can't really see Stiles coming over to make everyone spaghetti for movie night.
Yeah, Stiles hasn't really acted like he's dying to be BFFs with the pack (and honestly, they're trying to kill him or Scott or one of their friends half the time), and the feeling seems to be pretty mutual. Derek and his pack are all kind of loners who don't take well to strangers, anyway, so any kind of bonding is going to take some serious work.
I actually totally get why a lot of people love the mom!Stiles trope, having a bit of a weakness for made families and unlikely friendships in fic myself. Sometimes you do just have to indulge yourself in idfic for the greater good. I think the thing about mom!Stiles that really just irked me was how it was absolutely everywhere. Like, even posts totally unrelated to Stiles and sometimes even to Teen Wolf would get hijacked and turned into meta about mom!Stiles; which, okay, is kind of just a thing on Tumblr and the Internet in general that I should be used to with fandom in general at this point, but I think they stood out to me more because it was something that I was not a huge fan of and was tired of seeing. Add to that the fact that a lot of people I came across were really adamant about how it was totally canon and got kind of up in arms if anyone suggested otherwise and... yeah. Just one of those cases of the perfect storm of annoyance, lol. That being said, I would never go around jumping on people who like mom!Stiles and telling them that they were awful people for liking something I didn't like, which I've definitely seen some people at the other end of the fan spectrum do.
Actually, I think that's kind of the problem with the current state of Teen Wolf fandom: on one end, you have the people who are more extreme and often pretty obnoxious about Sterek and certain fanon tropes and shoving things in other people's faces, and on the other end you have the more extreme, incredibly gung ho anti-Sterek people who feel like they have license to be complete and utter dicks to people who view things differently than they do. The extreme shippers can make other people feel excluded from fandom if they're not into fandom or don't share those majority opinions, but then the extreme anti-Sterek people seem to have this with-us-or-against-us mentality, and feel like it's okay to be terrible to anyone who is part of that fandom majority. Meanwhile, everyone in the middle who just wants to enjoy what they enjoy (whether it be Sterek or other ships or no ships or a certain character or just shirtless teenage werewolves in general), and doesn't give a shit about proving that their opinions are obviously the right ones is left drowning in a sea of wank.
...dammit, Teen Wolf, when I signed up for this fandom I though I was getting a break from the SPN-style wank. I am thinking perhaps my expectations were too high. Lol.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-16 01:12 am (UTC)(link)But that kind of stuff is like the fic equivalent of a sometimes food.
This is a good analogy! I loved the occasional fic about Dean and Castiel picking out drapes and having comedic misunderstandings with their crotchety neighbors, but the fics that have really stuck with me after all this time are the darker, complicated ones. A strong fandom needs a fic culture that isn't afraid to delve deep into canon issues.
it also kind of baffles me a bit because you'd have to be a complete and utter masochist to watch a show like SPN if you didn't like slightly dark, painful things.
I don't know, maybe it's a thing wherein canon satisfies everyone's desires for dark drama, and therefore the role of fic is to fill the fluff gap? That's also my theory for why shows that are somewhat ... uh, let's say not Emmy material ... tend to have larger, more enthusiastic fanbases than shows that are more critically respected. For example, I'm freaking in love with Breaking Bad and Battlestar Galactica, but I've never done more than dip my toe into their (pathetic and tiny) fandoms, because the canon is satisfying all by itself. TW and SPN, on the other hand, dangle just enough deliciousness to get me hooked, and then frustrate me -- like the TV version of a striptease.
Dean tends to use sex as either an escape or a distraction, and even in the (very, very) few serious relationships we've seen him have, he's not terribly good at being open and forthright.
Yeah! And in furtherance of the persona of machismo that Dean wears like armor, he also tends to downplay the emotional significance sex has for him. I typically see Castiel as treating sex at one of two extremes; the first is "What is this messy, pointless human ritual and why does it matter so much?" and the other is THIS WAS SERIOUS AND WE ARE BONDED NOW DO YOU LIKE ME Y/N BTW I WILL STAB MYSELF IF YOU CIRCLE "N". Only the solemn and humorless angel version. Either one of these reactions would clash violently with Dean being a deeply closeted romantic.
Has someone made a comparison photoset of this?
I don't know if you ever picked up a Mishaland membership in your time in D/C fandom, but there actually is a post about that here: http://mishaland.livejournal.com/109308.html If not, here are the images, which are reposts from, hey, F!S: http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/707/castielsecret2.jpg http://i37.tinypic.com/fe314n.jpg
The fact that he's not a totally selfless being and that he does have those selfish moments and missteps along the way are part of what makes him super interesting as a character.
I think this is right on the money. I love Scott's hopeless, idealistic selflessness, but the lack of that in Stiles gives his personality a fascinating torque. If he professed a sincere desire to save everyone's life and then risked his own life to do so, well, that's just Stiles being a super dude. However, the fact that he'll try to convince Scott to just let Derek die and then refuse to run from a kanima attack, attempt to drag Derek out of harm's way, and keep him afloat in a pool for two hours? That's interesting. I like that he's cynical about and argumentative with almost everyone and then endangers himself for them anyway. If he were perfect and had no flaws to overcome before he could have his heroic moments, his heroism would be bland.
I think there's the potential for Stiles to have a really interesting relationship with Derek and his pack
One of my favorite pack + Stiles moments is in the rave episode, because both Erica and Isaac are fascinatingly deferential to Stiles' authority. They capture Jackson, but don't start the interrogation until Stiles arrives. Stiles is the one who takes charge of the questioning. When Jackson is beginning to stir, it's Stiles who takes charge of trying to get more ketamine into him, and then it's Stiles whom Erica taps on the shoulder to notify that Jackson has stood up. Then Stiles is the one to hustle them out of there. They just sort of automatically let him be leader. It made me think that although Scott is the fake alpha of his wee band of misfits, Stiles has some nascent leadership qualities and, even as the resident normal, the Sokka, the Zeppo, he effortlessly took charge of a room full of a kanima and two werewolves. Packmom!Stiles is totally unrealistic, and he and the pack have no desire nor reason to achieve any kind of normal human bonding, but I saw the seeds of a really interesting dynamic there. I kind of wish that kind of pack/Stiles relationship would get ficced more.
a lot of people I came across were really adamant about how it was totally canon and got kind of up in arms if anyone suggested otherwise
Aw what, that's cray. I'm a total lurker in TW fandom and I'm pretty new, so I didn't know that was going on. :/ I can understand your visceral dislike, then.
I though I was getting a break from the SPN-style wank
The entire paragraph you wrote about hardcore Sterek fans vs. hardcore Sterek haters is giving me vivid flashbacks to Dean/Cas vs. Wincest. Like I could do a find/replace on those terms and it could perfectly. So let's say you haven't escaped SPN-style wank. You haven't escaped it at all...
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-16 05:17 am (UTC)(link)I loved the occasional fic about Dean and Castiel picking out drapes and having comedic misunderstandings with their crotchety neighbors, but the fics that have really stuck with me after all this time are the darker, complicated ones.
Same! The fic that tends to really stick with me is stuff that's generally pretty plotty and dark. I love the fic that really explores Dean and Cas as characters and approaches their relationship from a new angle and is full of delicious twists and turns and depth and just forces me to really think about things. Even with all the fluffy fics that I've enjoyed, most of them don't really have that emotional impact, so they aren't usually the ones that I remember in vivid detail or find myself going back to read again and again.
That's also my theory for why shows that are somewhat ... uh, let's say not Emmy material ... tend to have larger, more enthusiastic fanbases than shows that are more critically respected.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, especially with your TV-equivalent of a strip tease analogy. With shows like Supernatural and Teen Wolf, I think the main draw is the potential for more that's not fully realized within canon. Both shows (and a lot of similar not-always-emmy-quality shows that have a pretty strong fandom presence) also have really compelling characters that are incredibly easy to get attached to. And, yeah, as much as I love both both TW and SPN and think they're highly entertaining and generally pretty good, the writing is sometimes... less than stellar, and some of the plotholes are big enough to sail a cruise liner through. The fact that you have these great characters and interesting worlds, but there are so many aspects left unexplored and underdeveloped makes you want to just dive right in and explore all those uncharted depths and fill in the numerous gaps in ways that make sense to you. Shows with tighter writing still inspire fanworks, obviously, but I know I'm generally much less inclined to create for things that already seem fully realized, since I'm already satisfied with what's there. Those are the things that I usually take the same route as you and just don't really explore their fandoms much, if at all.
I'm freaking in love with Breaking Bad and Battlestar Galactica
And this is the point where I just have to take a moment to pause in my long-winded ramblings to commend your taste because it is most excellent. Breaking Bad is one of those shows that I get a bit incoherent when I try to talk about it because it's just so fucking AMAZING and it gives me so many feelings that I have a really hard time processing them all. I actually need to finish BSG and track down season 5 of BB so I'm completely caught up, but part of me is reluctant because then what do I do with myself?! Aside from sit in a corner and try to wait out the long, awful months until BB starts up again, that is.
"What is this messy, pointless human ritual and why does it matter so much?" and the other is THIS WAS SERIOUS AND WE ARE BONDED NOW DO YOU LIKE ME Y/N BTW I WILL STAB MYSELF IF YOU CIRCLE "N".
So, so much yes on this. I think a lot of people tend to forget that Cas is not actually human and has a tendency to react to things in pretty extreme ways sometimes. He's definitely become a bit more human with all of the time he's spent around Sam and Dean, but he's still this incredibly old cosmic being that was created for the express purpose of following orders and smiting the hell out of things. There isn't really a lot of time for romance in all that, and the fact that he's spent most of his existence as a soldier and essentially devoted with his entire being to one cause after another means that he's understandably... intense. I mean, the dude ate all the souls in Purgatory as a means of keeping his brother from re-starting the Apocalypse; that's not what I'd call a half-measure. So, him reacting in one of those two extreme ways to sex and all the relationship trappings that come with that (especially when Dean is the other half of the equation) makes complete and total sense. I have seen writers out there who do explore those two different types of reactions to sex, too, and ugh, it's so good. I wish it happened more often.
Dean being a deeply closeted romantic.
Yeeeeees, thank you for saying this. There seems to be a tendency with some parts of the fandom to make Dean into this asshole who has to be tricked or otherwise coerced into a relationship, not because he has severe abandonment issues and truckloads of emotional baggage and and extreme case of self-loathing, but because dating or being in a committed relationship would totally kill his game. I find it highly frustrating. Just because Dean does a fairly decent job of hiding the parts of himself that crave affection and romance doesn't mean they don't exist. Honestly, for all that Sam is the Winchester who's all about feelings, Dean is totally more needy and romantic of the two. Sam just tends to be more willing and able to actually talk about things. Well... sometimes. He's better at it than Dean, at least. Lol.
I love Scott's hopeless, idealistic selflessness, but the lack of that in Stiles gives his personality a fascinating torque.
Definitely! I really like Scott and I think he's a great character (aside from a few stumbles with the way he was written in season 1), but I think part of the reason that so many fans have latched onto Stiles is because he's not quite as idealistic, and he really does have to work pretty hard at being heroic. That's not to say that it's easy for Scott, either, but I think the difficulties that they face are very different things. Stiles is also fully human, and I think a lot of people find it easy to relate to being that kind of awkward, uncertain person who's stumbling along and just trying desperately to keep up with everyone around them, even when all of those people seem stronger or more informed or somehow "better".
They just sort of automatically let him be leader. It made me think that although Scott is the fake alpha of his wee band of misfits, Stiles has some nascent leadership qualities
That is a great point. I actually think they've set up a really interesting contrast between the two packs. On the one hand, you have Derek's pack, which is made up of people who are more prone to being loners and who are using the pack as a means to an end: Derek for protection/power, Isaac to escape his home life and gain a sense of agency, Erica to not be weighed down by her epilepsy and have the chance to fully explore her own identity, and Boyd to stop being invisible and find a way to make himself visible to others. While I think they all want to find somewhere where they fit in and belong, Derek's pack isn't exactly that place for them. On the other hand, you have Scott's pack, which consists of a people who are all intensely loyal in their own ways and have come together to form a group mostly out of a sense of friendship and wanting to help each other. Scott is definitely the pseudo alpha and uniting factor within his pack, since he's the one who brought Stiles and Allison along for the ride in the first place, but I think all the members of Scott's pack have pretty strong inherent leadership qualities. They're different brands of leadership, definitely, but that just makes it even more interesting. I'm actually hoping that part of Stiles' growth as a character in upcoming seasons involves an exploration that potential and those parts of his personality. It would be interesting to see how his human leadership role would compare/contrast with Scott's werewolf one, and how he he can balance being both a leader in some regards and a follower in others.
The entire paragraph you wrote about hardcore Sterek fans vs. hardcore Sterek haters is giving me vivid flashbacks to Dean/Cas vs. Wincest.
Basically, that is exactly it. Aside from the anti-Sterek people not being united on a OTP of their own, it's pretty much the same thing. Thinking about it, a lot of the anti-Sterek people tend to be people who got into the fandom earlier, too, with many of the Sterek shippers coming in later on. The similarities just won't end...
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-16 06:16 am (UTC)(link)Yep yep, triple order of this. With very few exceptions (like, the prose was excellent, the porn was exceptionally hot, it was hilarious, etc) I don't remember specific fluffy fics I read. It's all kind of a blur of domesticity and cuddling. Plotty fics, though? I can still recount the hours spent waiting for updates...
The fact that you have these great characters and interesting worlds, but there are so many aspects left unexplored and underdeveloped makes you want to just dive right in and explore all those uncharted depths and fill in the numerous gaps in ways that make sense to you.
This is exactly it. I spent half my time in SPN fandom engaging in rapidfire back-and-forths with similarly excitable fandom friends about where the show could be going next, what if this happened, what if that happened, etc. And even when I was happy with what the show was delivering, there was always that thought in my head: this could've been... more. And so I devoured all the fic I could find because I wanted every "what if" scenario in existence. Whereas Breaking Bad? Not only do I feel no need for fic, I don't even bother to theorize about what could happen. Nothing I could come up with could ever match the quality of the actual canon.
Ha, hilariously, just as I wrote that sentence, a song from the BB soundtrack started up on my playlist. Dear lawd in heaven, I love that show.
I actually need to finish BSG and track down season 5 of BB so I'm completely caught up, but part of me is reluctant because then what do I do with myself?!
Trust me, you're going to need every month until its return to process all the feelings S5 parte uno will give you. My BFF called me every day for a week after the finale had aired to wail her BB feelings into my ear. Are you against pirating or streaming illegal content? Because I know some safe places S5 can be viewed online. Ugh... ugh. BB is like the most amazing show ever. I just want to hug Vince Gilligan and then break his nose for destroying my mind so beautifully. It's the only show on TV where an episode about the characters attempting to swat a fly could have me on the edge of my seat sdkfhljsdkfhljfhs BASICALLY MY EMOTIONS ARE A ROOF PIZZA
that's not what I'd call a half-measure.
NO MORE HALF-MEASURES DEAN!!!! I agree with you. Cas throws his entire self into everything he does. And this is where Dean being a closeted romantic becomes a problem, because... if Cas gets emotionally attached, Dean will panic and have attacks of crippling insecurity and be completely incapable of comfortable reciprocation. If Cas reacts to the initiation of a sexual relationship with nonchalance, Dean will be incredibly hurt, though unable to express it. It's like Schrodinger's emotional clusterfuck, only everyone's screwed no matter what's in the box.
Dean is totally more needy and romantic of the two.
Absolutely. He's also the Winchester most desperately attached to his family (always the mediator in the fights between John and Sam, as early as S1). He's a black hole of emotional need and once he cares enough about you to haul you past his personal event horizon, he will never let you go. I think this applies to every meaningful relationship in his life.
I think part of the reason that so many fans have latched onto Stiles is because he's not quite as idealistic, and he really does have to work pretty hard at being heroic.
I think so too; his cynicism and pragmatism are welcome in a world where people waltz around being dramallamas about everything. He's genuinely heroic, but the fact that he has to actively choose heroism instead of naturally falling into it a la Scott make that quality interesting (it also makes him seem brave). He's hilarious, and he has the manpain that everyone loves but he represses it, so it doesn't read as obnoxious angst. Really, it's no surprise everyone loves him. I can break it down on a chemical level and I certainly love him. Also -- did you ever watch Heroes? In that show, almost every character had some sort of magnificent superpower or other claim to badassery... and then there was Mohinder, a geneticist, recent immigrant, and total fish out of water, who kept himself alive in the insanity around him through sheer force of scrappiness and wit. Mohinder was never a fandom darling, but his willingness to go toe-to-toe with superpowered serial killers armed with nothing but determination was a huge part of the reason why he was my favorite. And I see that quality echoed in Stiles. That he'll wade into war with sarcasm and smarts as his first and only line of defense, hopelessly outmatched? It's admirable.
While I think they all want to find somewhere where they fit in and belong, Derek's pack isn't exactly that place for them.
Yeah, mostly because Derek is such a shithead. He dragged these lonely teens a battle they couldn't possibly understand. It's kind of tragic, really; Derek wants to recreate the family he lost, I think, and his wolflings want the exact same thing, but Derek is like congenitally incapable of shaping this ragtag gang of broken teenagers into a cohesive family unit. He lives in an abandoned train station and runs his pack like boot camp. It's crazy! After S2, it seems the only teen he bit who still likes him is Isaac (and I may actually cry if Isaac defects to Scott's pack, because I think his relationship with Derek is really sweet and I just want something to go right for Derek, dammit). Whereas everyone in Scott's "pack" answers to him because they trust him. He's the moral compass. He looks out for everybody. It's genuine. His friends love him, and they want to support him and each other, and so, like Stiles, they choose to put themselves in danger. He doesn't need to scream I'M THE ALPHA at everyone who will listen; he just is the alpha.
Thinking about it, a lot of the anti-Sterek people tend to be people who got into the fandom earlier, too, with many of the Sterek shippers coming in later on. The similarities just won't end...
Shit, dude. I'm both horrified and impressed. SPN fandom is like a traumatic childhood relationship; you just keep recreating it forever...
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-16 07:32 pm (UTC)(link)That is one of the best parts of being in SPN fandom! I absolutely love playing guessing games and trying to figure out where they'll take things with friends. Even when the speculation doesn't pan out, it's fun to think of the what-ifs. And, you know, it gives you story fodder if things go in extremely DNW directions. That is definitely what makes the creative side of fandom so active, too. At any given time, there's generally more than one path they could have taken and it's so much fun to explore those possibilities. Like you said, even when things are going in directions you like, you still crave more.
It's the only show on TV where an episode about the characters attempting to swat a fly could have me on the edge of my seat sdkfhljsdkfhljfhs BASICALLY MY EMOTIONS ARE A ROOF PIZZA
This is the most accurate description of what Breaking Bad does to your emotions that I have ever seen. I'm lucky in that friend that I usually rant with about SPN and Teen Wolf (and Being Human UK and A:TLA and... okay, the list is too long, but basically every show I watch/have watched. Lol) started watching Breaking Bad around the same time that I did, so I have someone to flail at and a shoulder to cry on. That fucking fly episode, man. I just... how do you write something that amazing and emotionally compelling about swatting a fly?!
(Also, I am totally not opposed to illegal online content. I watch what I can through Netflix, but they only have through season 4, and I don't think I can wait for their slow asses. Also, I'm in Canada, so it takes like twice as long for most things to show up, and I'm am impatient. Haha.)
It's like Schrodinger's emotional clusterfuck, only everyone's screwed no matter what's in the box.
This is the best sentence I have ever read. And beyond being a stellar description of Dean and Cas' relationship (even non-romantically), is basically just an accurate summary of Supernatural in general. They should make it their slogan.
He's a black hole of emotional need and once he cares enough about you to haul you past his personal event horizon, he will never let you go. I think this applies to every meaningful relationship in his life.
It really, really does. Which is why Dean's relationships with the people he's let in like that are generally so compelling to watch. And also frustrating, since the whole emotional constipation and all those barriers to communication still exist even after he's let people in. You need to learn to use your words, Dean. Seriously.
Also -- did you ever watch Heroes?
Only season one and part of season two, but that was definitely enough to understand what you're getting at with Mohinder! Mohinder was a really interesting character for all the reasons you stated, and I can definitely see the similarities with Stiles. I have a general weakness for the badass normal characters like that (which is part of what made me love Stiles in the first place). Actually, you mentioned Sokka in one of the comments upthread, and I think there are also a lot of good comparisons to be made between Sokka and Stiles, too. That loyalty to friends and willingness to keep going and fighting, even when you're outgunned and it's kind of terrifying. Also the fact that, while Stiles is human and Sokka's not a bender, they both have their own skill sets and ways of fighting back. Those types of characters are the ones that really lend perspective to things, because they do show that not everyone needs to be a werewolf or have super powers to fight for what they believe in. It's not necessarily easy, but that's what makes it all the more compelling.
Derek wants to recreate the family he lost, I think, and his wolflings want the exact same thing, but Derek is like congenitally incapable of shaping this ragtag gang of broken teenagers into a cohesive family unit.
Derek, Derek, Derek. What are we going to do with you? Derek is one of those characters that I want to hug the life out of and then smack repeatedly. His past is tragic and his life is kind of awful, but then he has to go and make TERRIBLE CHOICES and drag other people down with him and uuuuuugh. I want him to find his way and get his shit together, but I have a feeling there's still going to be a lot more struggling along the way.
Related, but I'm really curious to learn more about the Hale family and how their pack structure worked, too. I mean, is Derek's shitty pack managing the result of being young when his family died and never really being intended to be an alpha and not having the training and information he needs? His interaction with Deacon at the end of S2 almost makes it seem this way. But then you also have to wonder if his family didn't use similar training methods to the ones that he's been using with the baby betas. I kind of hope this is not the case, because I'd really rather not find out that the Hales were raging assholes and that's why Derek thinks all these things are okay. I suspect that it's just him making bad decisions, not exactly being cut out for leadership, and acting out of desperation, but who knows. I guess we shall have to wait and see...
and I may actually cry if Isaac defects to Scott's pack, because I think his relationship with Derek is really sweet and I just want something to go right for Derek, dammit
Ugh, yes. I really, really love a lot of Isaac and Derek's interactions (when Derek's not being a total dick, that is). They have this sort of pseudo-brothers dynamic, and I think that Isaac could be really good for Derek, both as just a friend and as a bit of a grounding force. This is especially true now that Peter is back. I also love Isaac and Scott's potential for bromance, so it would be great if they could have Isaac becoming friends with Scott and still remaining a part of Derek's pack, or at least maintaining some sort of friendship with him. I mean, if Isaac does end up jumping ship, it might end up being the wake up call that Derek needs, but I could also see it going really, really badly. Derek does not handle rejection well.
And as an aside, I think Scott has the potential to be an excellent alpha, and he's already a really good pseudo-alpha for his little band of misfits, but I really hope they're not going to go the whole "AND NOW SCOTT IS THE ALPHA OF EVERYONE" route in season 2. I don't think he's at a point in his life where he's ready for it just yet (which might change in season 3, but still). However, I think a co-leadership role with Derek of sorts would be all kinds of awesome. They could share responsibility since Derek actually knows more of the werewolf shit, and Scott could teach him not to be a shithead. It would be great.
SPN fandom is like a traumatic childhood relationship; you just keep recreating it forever...
Just when you think you've escaped it and start to relax, it shows up with a new last name and starts pestering you to be facebook friends. It never goes away, ever.
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-17 02:12 am (UTC)(link)Yeah, and squeeing and complaining and flailing about how beautiful everybody's soul is. And then having wank on your flist every weekend to laugh about. Ahh, good times.
started watching Breaking Bad around the same time that I did, so I have someone to flail at and a shoulder to cry on. That fucking fly episode, man. I just... how do you write something that amazing and emotionally compelling about swatting a fly?!
I forced my BFF to watch the first season with me and she, gasphorror, THOUGHT IT WAS BORING!!! Then she wouldn't agree to watch S2 for several more months. As soon as she did she got hooked, but in the gap there I was, like, dying. BB is one of those shows where you have to make everyone you know watch it because it's impossible to dislike. I think Fly might be my favorite episode in the series? I've watched a million times. Thematically elegant, stuffed full with important character development, and tense. Oh God Vince Gilligan, JUST LET ME LOVE YOU.
Alright, illegal online content, yeaaaah! I don't want to out these places as being havens for piracy in a public comment, so do you have a place I can PM links to you? It can be a sock account or whatever.
They should make it their slogan.
YES I have a shining career as a slogan writer ahead of me!
Which is why Dean's relationships with the people he's let in like that are generally so compelling to watch.
Yep. I mean, I'm a D/C girl all the way, and a classic case at that -- got into the fandom in S4, Cas is my favorite, D/C my OTP, hung out exclusively in Casfandom, etc etc -- but I still did my own fair share of crying into pillows over the beauty of Sam'n'Dean's relationship, lol. Before its unchanging nature made it boring, anyway.
Actually, you mentioned Sokka in one of the comments upthread, and I think there are also a lot of good comparisons to be made between Sokka and Stiles, too. That loyalty to friends and willingness to keep going and fighting, even when you're outgunned and it's kind of terrifying.
Yeah! They're also both the funny kid in the gang (or in Sokka's case, the Gaang), the skeptic, the investigator. If Stiles were in A:TLA, he'd also choose to spend his mini-vacation at the library. :D Like, Sokka wasn't my bb in A:TLA, but I did love him (well lbr, I loved everybody, that show was kickass), and I think part of that was because he's the -- not badass normal, but really-determined-and-brave-normal-who-will-take-risks-despite-non-badassery, which isn't catchy, but oh well. I just really love that character trait.
Derek is one of those characters that I want to hug the life out of and then smack repeatedly. His past is tragic and his life is kind of awful, but then he has to go and make TERRIBLE CHOICES and drag other people down with him and uuuuuugh.
Yeah, seriously. I love him and I have so much sympathy for him, but at the same time I spend half the time he's onscreen shaking my head at the way he fails at, like, everything he tries. Jeff Davis said at NYCC that one of his writers did research on wolf packs and found out that subordinate wolves are loyal to their alpha not out of fear, but out of love, and everyone was like "lol clearly Derek NEVER LEARNED THAT." He needs to make genuine emotional connections to his pack (which right now is... Isaac) and it would certainly help if he could get Scott to like him too, but his deep-seeded trust issues make it impossible for him to forge real human relationships with these people. They're fragile kids and they needed him to be a loving parent figure more than an army instructor.
I mean, is Derek's shitty pack managing the result of being young when his family died and never really being intended to be an alpha and not having the training and information he needs?
I think it has to be a combination of this and his emotional constipation. I mean, maybe the Hales did run their wolf kids through a physical training regime similar to Derek's, but I can't picture them being as emotionally distant -- it's possible, I suppose, but I'd be surprised. What I really want to know is what happened to Derek and Laura after the fire. Derek was what, 16? How'd they survive? Did another pack take them in, or has Derek not been part of a real pack since his family died? I feel like more knowledge about the six years Derek spent out of Beacon Hills with Laura would help explain a lot about his amazing issues.
They have this sort of pseudo-brothers dynamic, and I think that Isaac could be really good for Derek, both as just a friend and as a bit of a grounding force.
I agree. I love that moment after the fight with the kanima in the S2 finale, when Derek takes hold of Isaac's shoulder and pulls him close. It's a protective, older-brother-esque kind of moment and it encapsulates what I like about them. Derek's good for Isaac because he really does want what's best for his pack, and Isaac is good for Derek because Derek is a crap leader and he needs someone who doesn't challenge him. I'm also really looking forward to Scott and Isaac becoming closer -- actually I heard that the writers are planning to have Scott's new friendship with Isaac shut Stiles out, which I'm also looking forward to because pain.
However, I think a co-leadership role with Derek of sorts would be all kinds of awesome. They could share responsibility since Derek actually knows more of the werewolf shit, and Scott could teach him not to be a shithead.
Hmm, I could see that. They likely will have to cooperate to deal with the alpha pack, but at the same time they have so many trust issues that I can't see them just falling into an easy co-leadership kind of thing, no matter how ideal it may seem. Derek and Scott are both proud... Derek wouldn't actually want Scott's advice, I think, he wouldn't want Scott to give his pack orders, and Scott would be equally pissed off if Derek thought he could treat Scott's people as if they were Derek's people. Maybe that's a thing they'll have to work towards.
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-16 06:22 am (UTC)(link)