Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-10-14 03:46 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-10-14 03:46 pm
[ SECRET POST #2112 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2112 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 102 secrets from Secret Submission Post #302.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
I mean, wanting a specific pair (or in this case, apparently three people) together is only a sign of whom they ship, nothing else. It's only possible to notice a trend if the majority of fandoms are known.
and a lot of times, that attitude comes from a general dislike and distrust of female characters.
This is actually a really good point; a lot of people are distrustful of female characters. Personally, I think it's because of how a lot of female characters are written, and the roles they're often given. That is, I think people have been given cause to distrust the writing when it comes to female characters. This does lead to unfair dismissal in some cases, but often the criticism of the female character is valid.
But in any case, I'd like more talk about the actual canon and writing rather than personal attacks on fans. The former is actually interesting, the latter rather meaningless. And if points can't be refuted without attacking the person raising them, I don't give much for the refutation, to be honest.
no subject
Incredibly well said.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-15 10:00 pm (UTC)(link)I don't think I made any assumptions about the OP based on the couples they ship, and I certainly don't think I attacked them, so I'm really unclear on where your last sentence comes from, and I sincerely do not understand why you'd think that being critical of fan attitudes precludes being critical of the source.
I think the way the OP worded their secret is unfortunate if what they meant was just, "I want the new movie to focus on the relationships of these characters with each other, not outside love interests," and it fits with a pattern I and others have seen in fandom. That's not the same as saying they're a bad person, and if you can't distinguish between someone saying, "fuck you misogynist" and saying, "Have you thought about why specifically female love interests bother you?" then IDEK.
I think people have been given cause to distrust the writing when it comes to female characters. This does lead to unfair dismissal in some cases, but often the criticism of the female character is valid.
I think that you can dislike the way some female characters are written without discounting the possibility that any kickass female love interest for a male character could exist. And I think blanket distrust of any woman based on having been burned before is pretty sad. I've also seen that exact argument used by a lot of really shitty people in my fandom (which is not Star Trek), who then backpedaled on hating the "poor writing" once the woman turned out to not be a love interest. So I can't immediately take it in good faith.
no subject
I don't see the problem with simply hating a character or pairing (or wanting to eliminate all the rivals for a pairing), and I have no clue why so many in fandom seem to think it's so horrible.
I think blanket distrust of any woman based on having been burned before is pretty sad.
Yeah, I agree, but I also see where it comes from. This is a pretty large subject, and it also depends on medium and country, but in general mainstream popular U.S. media, women have been given the short end of the stick. The image is further reinforced by blockbusters, sitcoms, and other stuff that most people go to see and are influenced by.
I mean, Uhura in reboot Star Trek is no exception; while all the male characters are introduced or are given a major scene related to their skills, Uhura's screentime centres around either romance or flirting. There's also only one of her. Not that I think every canon has to have a perfectly balanced cast, but there are no other female characters in prominent roles. She's also the only one who hasn't got a humanising "faily" moment; she's simply perfect.
The thing is, it's not that I think that distrust of female characters is always justified (especially not wholesale dismissal); I think that the audience has been conditioned to dismiss female characters. And yes, that's sad. But I also think writers could work a lot harder at the female characters they do write, and try and add a few more every now and then.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-15 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)You're also saying we can't ignore patterns. You're saying it about patterns of representation. And while obviously there are patterns of representation, I don't think that "conditioning" is something that should be accepted as an excuse in a context like fandom, where there are so many opportunities to rethink our assumptions. There are plenty of great female characters in media of many kinds, and the fact that women "are given the short end of the stick" doesn't negate that or excuse the kind of fan response that writes tons of fix-it fic about men while ignoring or erasing women. It seems like you're trying to say the creators have to change before the fans do, and I think that's pretty much the opposite of true. (And note, I'm not saying every fan must write about women, the same way I hope you're not saying that every fan is conditioned to distrust women.)
no subject
That's what I mean by assuming. There's also the fact that wanting to break up a pairing doesn't mean hating one of them. It's possible to love a character and ship them with no one.
I don't think it's wrong to talk about that context when someone makes a secret like this.
It depends on how one does it. Assigning specific motives to individuals one doesn't know is not a great way.
I don't think that "conditioning" is something that should be accepted as an excuse
Neither do I. It's a possible reason for some of the reactions, nothing else (actually, it only really works for the unexamined hate diatribes; more thought-out criticism tends to deal with the writing and characterisation). It still makes me uncomfortable going even that far, actually, because it's assuming that people aren't analysing their actions properly, and that's rather insulting. But I've done it myself, occasionally, and I know where it comes from.
Looking at patterns in writing is one thing; it's there, we have the words and the images on the screen to analyse. But patterns in individuals? It would mean we'd have to know someone really, really well.
I mean, even the tendency to dismiss female characters for the reasons I mentioned above isn't something I'd actually accuse someone of that I was having a discussion with. Because I couldn't know, and it's an insult, not an argument. And it's about the person I'm having the discussion with, not the subject matter (the canon).
it seems like you're trying to say the creators have to change before the fans do
Yes. Because I think fanfic has very little (if any) impact on what producers actually decide. Not to mention that online fanfic-writing fandom is a rather small part of the audience.
I mean, take Star trek again. Did the enormous, decades old and actually famous (comparably) K/S fandom make he writers and producers of the film pair Kirk and Spock together? Isn't the whole Star Trek universe still a canon completely devoid of anything other than straight romance? didn't they pair one half of the most famous slash pairing ever (the one that coined the phrase, even) with a woman?
Why do you think that it would matter who people do or don't pair up in their fanfic?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-17 11:58 am (UTC)(link)yeah, we got a major scene with Spock showing his skills as science officer.. oh wait.
We did get one with McCoy showing his skills, though, right?? mumble mumble....
Uhura wasn't the one who had intercepted and translated that thingy that, eventually was, what had saved them all, right?
your sexism is showing. Minus the relationship with Spock, she was not so different than McCoy or Sulu but of course the moment it's revelated that her boyfriend is the character that you casually want to pair up with someone, she's only the girlfriend and really it's not that you have a different ship and her ship clash with yours.
This is exactly what the other anon is talking about in the posts above.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-17 12:00 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-17 11:38 am (UTC)(link)