[ SECRET POST #2164 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2164 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 044 secrets from Secret Submission Post #309.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

In Harry Potter, Lily Evans (later to be Lily Potter) was a childhood friend of Snape (who was basically in love with her), who ended her association with him over him being a racist prick.

Parts of fandom got really angry at her over this, because they loved / identified with Snape and hated James Potter for whatever dumb fandom reasons, and many brouhahas ensued, arguing that she should have stayed friends with Snape, gotten romantically involved with him, etc.

I honestly thought it was all kind of in the past now; it really seems kind of silly, from this vantage point. But I guess not, or something.

[fenm]

hated James Potter for whatever dumb fandom reasons

In fairness, whenever we see James in flashbacks, he's a major prick, as well. Rowling never really bothered to show him becoming the good man Lily ended up marrying; it was just, "Oh, he was a jerk, but he got better, just take my word for it". Yeah... show don't tell, Jo.

[philstar22]

This is pretty true. I also think that JKR thought that James dying to protect his family showed change. Except that people like Lucius Malfoy would have done that for their family, so while protecting your family is great it doesn't necessarily equal change.

I wish we could have seen some real change on the part of James, but I don't think that means it didn't happen. And the fact is, that we didn't really see all that much of James anyway. All the scenes we actually saw of him were colored by it being Snape's memories. It would have been nice if, for example, Remus had given Harry a good memory of his father. But James was dead, as was Lily, so anything we saw of them was going to be skewed by whose memories we were seeing them through.

[lunabee34]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. We get no objective picture of James. Either he is characterized as a saint and a hero by his former comrades or he is a monster in Snape's memories.

I think James did grow; I think most of us do things as kids that later shame us (I know I did), but it is a real shame that we don't get to see any of that.

In terms of Harry's characterization, it's a brilliant move--that moment when he finds out his dad is human instead of an ideal is really powerfully done. But not so much for the rest of the story.

[intrigueing]

Well, we see bits of him as a ghost-thing from the priori incantatum and the resurrection stone thing, but that's not exactly gloriously vivid characterization the way Snape's Worst Memory was...it felt like the flashbacks of the young adult Marauders in general were skimped on compared to the development Lily and Snape got.

[lunabee34]

*nods*

I agree.

Rather than James, Sirius is the character I have the most trouble with because I don't get the sense that he's changed drastically since he was a kid (and I concede that being imprisoned for pretty much all of his adulthood probably contributed to that hugely).

[intrigueing]

Sirius being like I don't mind because...his lack of development IS analogous character development, you know? His lack of development is part of his character arc.

But then again, Sirius seemed way more mature in Goblet of Fire, especially his adorably nagging totally-sounds-like-a-boring-responsible-adult letters and the scene in the cave where they talk about Crouch, than in Order of the Phoenix so I could definitely see the potential of his character there (which I attribute to him being locked in his parents' old house all alone, but it's still so hard to read through, especially when you know he's going to die without ever getting out of there. Makes it ten times more cruel, because he never got a chance to grow properly after being freed).

I've read these books way too many times, haven't I?

[lunabee34]

Awww, no such thing as too many times. :)

I love love love that moment in the movie when Sirius calls Harry James--such a perfect addition, I thought.

I can't imagine what living in that house again did to him; there really had to be someplace better they could have stashed him, you know? Some place that wasn't a dungeon of dark and hideous childhood memories. LOL

[philstar22]

I actually hate that moment. I don't think it was that explicit that Sirius was confusing the two in canon, and I don't personally think he was quite that far effected.

[lunabee34]

Different strokes for different folks.

I can certainly see an argument for not liking it. :)

[(Anonymous)]

An actual dungeon would probably be an improvement.

[lunabee34]

LOL

No joke.

The oppressive aura of that house is unimaginable.

[(Anonymous)]

I've always imagined Azkaban as being rather dungeon-like.

[(Anonymous)]

That explains the hate of "leaving him for James", but not the hate of "leaving him, period". What if (hypothetically speaking, disregarding canon and anthropic principle and all that for the sake of this one topic), she had ditched Snape and remained single or got involved with someone unambiguously nice and a good person? I bet that there would still be fans furious with her for daring to ditch Snape.

[fenm]

All I was addressing was why some people hate James. Other people can address the other stuff if they want.

[brightblueink]

Yeah that always bothered me in the books. I mean, I get that people can be plain jerks as teens but grow out of it (I'd like to think I grew out of some of my immature personality quirks I had as a teen), but it'd still be nice to see some indication of that change beyond JKR's word.

[intrigueing]

Really? That was never a problem for me at all, I was honestly bemused when I saw the fandom because "d'awww lol @ Harry, finding out that his dad actually wasn't totes perfect when he was 15, and not realizing that he himself is being hilariously immature at 15 himself! omg I love these books and everyone in them so much" was my immediate reaction to that scene the second I read it. And I read it when I was 11 years old on the day after the book came out, so no priming for me.

That being said, I am STILL so annoyed JKR didn't give us a proper scene with actual dialogue and stuff (in the style of Snape's Worst Memory) with adult!James and Lily and the Marauders being pals like everyone talked about, because it was one of the things I was really looking forward to and was sure would appear in Book 7. It just feels like I got cheated. Like not seeing George's reaction to Fred's death.

[(Anonymous)]

I... don't entirely agree with that characterization - as I recall there's fairly few flashbacks, and they're not all negative - not to mention that James did save Snape's life, admittedly from his best friend, but nevertheless - but I don't feel like looking up textual evidence in the books. And the other thing is that it's hardly as though Snape isn't a jerk with a capital J.

But, in fairness, there is some truth to that - although I don't know how much of the dislike of James is for that reason.

[fenm]

Except he kind of WAS a prick. He bullied and cursed younger kids because he could. It's not a question of whether he was a jerk or not--he was--it's a question of how, when, and why he changed.

[(Anonymous)]

da

Um...I think you misread something. The anon above never said he wasn't a jerk, s/he said not all the flashbacks and mentions of him showed him acting like a jerk. It is possible for intelligent readers to read between the lines and and make connections between the gaps and come to conclusions about a character without the character's whole arc being showed explicitly to their faces.

(Although I really would've liked to see or hear post-jerk!James in the books. Not because it was necessary, just because that would be more enjoyable and better writing.)

[fenm]

Ooh... okay.

And, yes, there are some positive mentions of James when he was younger. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that, yes, he was kind of a jerk.

And, yeah, it is possible to read between the lines (I'm not saying I agree with all of this, I'm explaining why other people hate James), but, honestly, Jo in general is really bad at telling, not showing, so I have a hard time cutting her any slack in that department.

[saiika_von_maou]

Yeah, so as much as I'm all for Lily not marrying Snape, I still kind of question why she went for James. I don't get being pissed off at a character for the decisions that the author made (though I probably shouldn't be saying that; I've probably been angry at a character for something like this at one point or another).

[(Anonymous)]

" Yeah, so as much as I'm all for Lily not marrying Snape, I still kind of question why she went for James."

Well, I mean, you kind of have to question, because everything involved in it takes place offscreen.

This is the problem with us spending so much time thinking about Harry Potter- at a certain level, there just are no answers, because JKR never put them there. It's just a series that kind of doesn't make sense on a grand scale. Which is okay and fine, it's just a hindrance to obsessive fans.

[(Anonymous)]

Because pretty much the main point of the Marauders is to teach Harry that "yeah, even people who were jerks when they were young can grow up to be good people"? It's stated pretty explicitly by multiple people that he grew out of it, and if there's nothing to suggest they're lying, it's a good bet that JKR is telling the truth.

It all takes place offscreen (well, offpage) though, because the story is about Harry. People gripe and gripe and go on long tangents about Snape and Lily and James...but we only ever got to see a tiny little slice of their story - the part that's relevant to Harry. Not anything close to enough to draw a well-informed conclusion about their overall characters...and it's not meant to. It's Harry's story, not Snape's or Lily's.

Fandom mentality can really be blinding sometimes.

[saiika_von_maou]

You seem angry. Nonetheless, thanks for putting it into perspective. :)