[ SECRET POST #2181 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2181 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 100 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 (again) - repeat ], [ 4 - trolls ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[ill_omened]

This is, as I have highlighted above, true (albeit there's some minor issues I'd raise).

The fact we don't perfectly understand the system, however, doesn't mean you can make some entirely fantastic claims - and pretend they have any real validity. Which is what your suggestion would be.

At best you're going to manage some sort of consciousness of the gaps, until it's slowly chipped away as science progresses.

Even as it stands, the scientific backing for the idea of the mind as a physical construct tied to the brain is fairly overwhelming, with literally nothing to suggest otherwise.

[(Anonymous)]

... I didn't make any suggestion. I was simply pointing out that in the absence of evidence, no posited claim has any more or less validity than any other. If there is a non-biological portion of consciousness, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise as yet, then it may well experience a range of things after biological cessation. We have no data to prove otherwise.

I cannot categorically state that there is a heaven, nor would I. But neither can you, on current evidence, categorically state that there isn't. Whatever anyone experiences after death, if anything, is a void field. There is no conclusive statement possible on current understanding.

If proof emerges later, that will be a different story. But said proof does not exist as yet.

So, no. We cannot make categorically true statements regarding the afterlife. And that was, I think, the whole of my point? I don't remember attempting to make any other, anyway.

[ill_omened]

We do have proof, is my critique.

As previously touched upon. There is a vast body of evidence of conciousness arising from a fixed physical system created through biological means. A conciousness that we can alter, and interfere with through direct, empirically measurable means.

It is a positive, demonstrable claim that the brain leads to conciousness. No, we don't understand precisely how this occurs - merely that it does.

Knowing how it's created we can then make a positive claim that when it breaks down, this leads to the destruction of conciousness. I fail to see the extent to which this is not evidence backing the claim?

Compared against this we have, what? 'We don't understand it to the point we can completely take apart and rebuild it, or know the precise microscopic details ergo maybe there's a soul'. These aren't equal claims, or worth considering in the same light.

Obviously I'm not saying 'yes there is a one hundred percent undeniable logic gate yes this is true, and cannot be disproved'. Rather that it is almost certainly true, to the point we may as well consider it so in all practical concerns.

[(Anonymous)]

What does anything in the body have to do with the possibility of a human soul?

[(Anonymous)]

Except that a biological consciousness is the only one we can test, since it's the only one we have means to access. We know a consciousness exists in a brain. But that's all we know. Correlation is not causation. The fact that something might exist in a state we cannot access doesn't mean that thing doesn't exist, just that our means are limited. We cannot rule out other options simply because we don't currently have the means to examine them.

We do not know that destroying the brain destroys the consciousness. All we know is that destroying the brain destroys our access to the consciousness, the form in which we may interact with it. That doesn't mean it's gone, any more than a broken phone means the person on the other side of it has ceased to exist, though we might well assume so if the phone was our only means of contacting them.

If and when someone finds the actual cause of consciousness, the means by which it is created, that will be different. But we're not there yet. We may make assumptions, and they may fit the available evidence, but while we know that there is evidence we are still lacking (and we do), all we have are hypotheses, not facts.

[(Anonymous)]

Love this comment, thank you.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, look, I get that you are very heavily invested in the possibility of life after death. A lot of people are, because simply not existing is a scary thought to plenty of people.

However. This pseudo-scientific crap about how "we don't have complete definitive proof yet that there is no consciousness after death, so ridiculous stuff like reincarnation and heaven and the concept of a soul are still on the table, scientifically speaking!" is just that, crap. There's a a difference between scientific theorizing or hypotheses and wishful thinking. Talking about the idea of non-biological consciousness is just that.

Be spiritual and believe in whatever you want, if that's how you want to live your life, just don't pretend anything you believe regarding the afterlife and spirits and such have any basis in science, because they don't.

[(Anonymous)]

The AYRT didn't use the words "afterlife" and "spirit" in their comment. (I'm the anon above who mentioned the philosophical idea of the body/mind/"soul" trichotomy, so you can direct your thoughts at me.) I think that their main intention was to poke holes in Ill_Omened's simplistic argument.

There's a lot about our own brains that we don't know. It's incredibly hubristic to assume that our current conception of the biological processes of the brain is the be-all, end-all explanation of "consciousness," since we don't even understand the biological processes fully yet.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, I thought you were the same person.

[(Anonymous)]

That's okay -- our writing styles were pretty similar.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT. Sorry, I was away.

Basically, what the anon above me said. I don't have any beliefs regarding the afterlife. I'm agnostic. I'm just not very fond of people saying we have definitive proof of something when, as yet, we do not. It was my understanding that science was based primarily in provable fact. If you do not have proof, you do not have a fact.

We may get proof yet. I'm quite looking forward to it. But we're not actually there yet, is my only point.

[ill_omened]

You have a seemingly wilful misunderstanding of what constitutes 'proof'.

We don't, for example have 'proof' in the sense you suggest of the existence of gravity. I doubt you are agnostic about gravity though.

[(Anonymous)]

This sentence makes no sense to me.

[(Anonymous)]

How fucking idiotic do you have to be to not be able to understand what they said?

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you.