fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2185 ]

[ SECRET POST #2185 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2185 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]

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[not a repeat; was broken yesterday]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 034 secrets from Secret Submission Post #312.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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08. http://imagr.eu/up/50d5747f50e725_FS_Yosuke.jpg

Is this about fandom seeing Yosuke as in the closet or did I miss something?

So...I should pity him for his issues? Like what, being the bored of Inaba Junes kid? Or maybe I should pity him because he was jealous of the MC? How about his homophobia or sexism?

Just sayin', I like Yosuke because he's the comic relief but his character (as well as most of the others) have some serious flaws. His flaws are painted as being normal...so that makes it even worse.

...Because they ARE normal in Japan.

OP didn't sound like they were suggesting we pity him so much as address his flaws accurately. I've only been into P4 for like a week so I don't have any examples here, but in another one of my fandoms, people tend to take a character who already had extreme issues with emotional suppression and turn him into an abusive romantic partner for the sake of hurtcomfort fic. It's really annoying.

Uh, saying no one understands him makes you sound pretty smug, you know.

I don't even read Yosuke-centric fics but I've noticed that fangirls like to use the Yosuke-is-a-closet-case scenario as an alternate character interpretation to explain his behaviors and have their yaois at the same time. Is that the sort of thing you're talking about? My impression of Yosuke was that he masks his feelings of inadequacy and poor self-esteem by asserting how masculine he is (which often comes in the form of being a jerk/creep to anyone who isn't male and straight) and questioning his sexuality has nothing to do with it.

tbh with you, I'm more alarmed by how a lot of people treat Adachi as a silly, harmless moe dude. the guy is so, so creepy (not all of the fandom does this of course, but enough to make me confused)

ME WITH NAOTO

no she is not transgender she is a whiny pretentious shit who thinks only men can be detectives bc she never read nancy drew idfk

Yeah, it always baffles me that a lot of people in fandom totally confuse cross dressing with being transgender. I've seen it in other fandoms too(MULAN IS NOT TRANS, YOU ARE MISSING THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT). tbh, it makes me face palm even more because I am trans. I don't care if people write fic about Naoto being FtM, but I can't help but roll my eyes when they insist that she is canonically trans and then some of them get offended when you call her "she". I'm desperate for representation too, but jeez

yeah she was never trans, she only wanted to be a man because she was convinced that was why people weren't taking her seriously because i don't even know why, there're loads of female detective books

not because she was 12
or because she was annoying as fuck
or the fact that she talked like she spent all night wanking to a thesaurus

idk naoto makes me hella pressed sometimes, just the way her fans go on as if she's this TRANS OPPRESSED MINORITY AND YOU ARE ***PHOBIC FOR NOT SHIPPING HER WITH KANJI, and it's like, go away from this earth

Her attitude was due to sexism still being rampant in Japan.

yeah i know why she was created but it's ridiculous to try and convey that in a teenager, albeit a ~prodigy~, who says "I CAN'T BE A WOMAN DETECTIVE BECAUSE I'VE ONLY READ BOOKS WITH MALE DETECTIVES!"

i mean when she was like "baw all the force hates me" i was like "that's bc you're a self-important dick that shows up telling everyone how useless they are and you're not even half their age yet"

she's just not a very good medium to express such an idea through, they could've easily done it with an adult social link instead of some whiny 12 yr old or w/e

It wasn't just reading. It was all Japanese media and actual exposure showing her only males made it, while women were ridiculed. And yes, this affects younger girls more often than women who are typically by then locked in. If she weren't young and able to pass as male, she probably wouldn't be working the fucking case, you fucking moron.

Also, she didn't tell anyone they were useless, fuckwad. She was called in to help on the case since they had no leads. If anyone was calling anyone useless, it was the higher ups.

Also, congratufuckinlations on being a special snowflake who is SO UNAFFECTED by sexism--which, by the way, is about a thousand times worse in Japan, but you probably don't care because it's not your preshus Amurikka and everything is judged by Amurrikan standards.

If they log in again tonight,

kruger is going to set in on you like a hound on a pack of rabbits. I agree with your comment, though.

Thanks. This is one of my pet peeves. People take such an American view with her, but you know, she's a Japanese girl in Japan where sexism is terrible. I mean, shit, people think America is bad with sexism? Japan is way worse. No matter what, she was going to have poor self esteem. Which is a huge point to Persona 4--a lot of the characters have poor self esteem! Because that's kind of what Japanese society is. It's very rigid and everyone sticks to their role, and making any kinds of waves is bad.

Basically, there was no Japanese equivalent of Nancy Drew for her. All detectives would be male in Japan. She had no role models, and it's not as simple as just reading Nancy Drew. That's one single character out of a lot of them, and that's not going to make much difference to someone as practical and realist as Naoto. Especially when she has experience to back her media-fed woes. She's going to see the treatment of women by society, and she can't ignore that for hope. That's not her character.

Also, her point about being dismissed for being a woman is reinforced the day she returns to school after her Shadow. The first thing you hear is two boys talking about how, oh, she's a girl in the most dismissive tone ever, like she's not cool anymore because she's a girl!

just because i don't feel the issue of sexism was represented well in naoto's character doesn't mean i dismiss sexism in japanese society

think about that leap of logic you just made for a second

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-12-28 02:33 (UTC) - Expand

why would i tho

Because you did!

(no subject)

kruger - 2012-12-28 02:41 (UTC) - Expand

i decided to reply to you seriously because you thinking i'm american made me laugh

regardless of the fact that she didn't vocalise their uselessness, the mere fact that she had to be called in would've been a punch in the balls to the members of the force that were already there

they will hate the fact that a teenager has been called in to do their job for them, so whether she was a male or a female, they're gonna resent the fact that a teenager is seen to do a better job than them

it's basic human psychology

besides, i just said in my previous comment that i understand the motivation behind creating her, and that i think it's a legitimate one

like i said, i feel like the idea was not expressed as well as it could've been, and should've been done with an adult social link instead of a children's one, because it would lend more weight to the issue her character represents

Again, that's not fucking her thinking they're useless. That's both their higher ups.

So essentially you're saying they're resenting her for a decision that was made by others so it's okay.

Also, no. It wouldn't have been more powerful as an adult social link or better. Because Naoto would have settled into the sexism and accepted it, not been made nearly as uncomfortable by it. Basic human psychology, since you try to be so good at that. It would lend zero weight as an adult besides to undermine that Japanese youth especially struggle with these old, outdated views thrust upon them.

Also, fuck you. She would have faced twice as much resentment had it been outed she was a girl earlier. She was perfectly aware they already resented her for her youth, and that's why she wanted to be taken seriously and why she masqueraded as a boy, you fucking dumbass. She says it right in the fucking game. Her being a girl would only be yet another reason for them to dismiss her, and she was already getting enough of that.

and yes, you're taking a very American view of this situation. You are everything that pisses me off about this fandom at times. Sorry she wasn't an adult woman crying adult tears to undermine the message about Japanese youth especially experiencing shit self esteem because of outdated views in a culture.

(no subject)

kruger - 2012-12-28 02:40 (UTC) - Expand

To be fair, I think the way her dialogue was written was due to how the translation was handled. Japanese has a whole "polite language form" dedicated for prim and proper people that's not easy to convey in English.

yeah i figured she was talking in keigo or something like that, but since i had no way of playing the original japanese version and ain't nobody got time for trying to find mods or shit, i just went with the transliteration

verbosity =/= keigo

I wish people would see that when a character is troubled for whatever reason it might be? They'd confront it seriously and admit that said character has problems and either the character themselves needs to face it or have one of their fellow cast mates call them out on their issue. I'd be standing on a melting iceberg if I even tried that stunt in my fandom.

Granted, the character I'm referring to is a favorite of mine, but I see and know that he has a lot of issues under his skin. Not that anyone else bothers to point them out in my fandom. In fact pointing out said issues might as well be considered heresy since it would destroy the fandom's pet OTP. ~~Though many are still in denial, given what Canon recently showed us. Thank you, Canon!~~

I don't care how ~broken~ and ~sympathetic~ he is, he still came off as a complete jackass to me and I'm not obligated to like him.

I think what a lot of people miss is... Yosuke is a typical Japanese teenager with a huge case of foot-in-mouth syndrome. And part of it might be a result of being sheltered (he's well-off, so he didn't really know hardship and the hardest part of his life was that he was BORED in a small town until the events of P4 happen) combined with being almost completely isolated.

He's very reflective of Japanese society, and I actually don't think he realizes he's actually homophobic (though there is a case he himself may be dealing with being bisexual by reacting as harshly as he does because Homosexual Feelings Are Bad according to Japan, as if you answer that neither Yukiko or Chie are MC's type, Yosuke will call soon after and ask about him being the MC's type!) Add onto that all the hate he's getting just because his dad's the manager of a department store that the town is largely hypocritical about, and then the death of someone he thought he was close to and now he thinks hates him (I have Opinions on that, as well, and fandom's treatment of Saki), and you've basically got a kid who's... Pretty messed up beneath the surface. There's a reason his Shadow manifested as a sociopath: Yosuke was on the fast track toward becoming apathetic with forcing a lot of feelings down and numbing himself the way he was. It wasn't just boredom.

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