fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2188 ]

[ SECRET POST #2188 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2188 ⌋

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So, I've been vaguely interested in watching this for some time now, but I'm a bit wary because I've heard it caused kind of a huge uproar in fandom and everyone was wanking like a marathon over it when it first came out and it seems to cause eruptions of wank whenever it's mentioned.

As far as I can tell, the fandom is split between whether it's horrible, wonderful, deeply flawed at points but good overall, or has a good idea and some good moments but with a bad execution. I've seen loads passing throwaway comments about it that seem to completely contradict each other, so I was wondering if someone here could give me an idea of what it's strengths and weaknesses are? (I don't mind minor spoilers...I've already been spoiled for a few bits of it).

Been some time since I watched it (and I only watched it once) but the controversy was probably caused by (yeah spoilers) Jack killing his own grandson, and then Ianto getting killed by the big bad. Plus, the aliens started out being creepy and mysterious, but by the end, they were just ridiculous...which sums up most of NuWho and its spinoffs, IMO.

hahaha because Classic Who's villains weren't ridiculous

RIGHT

da

Well, Classic Who's villains were ridiculous all the way through. NuWho tends to at least at first create the impression that the villains are really fo serious yo before becoming ridiculous...although why them turning out ridiculous is a BAD thing, I don't know, because the few genuinely terrifying villains who aren't ridiculous kind of bore me and feel incongruous in the show.

You might want to take into account that the reaction to CoE depends a lot on shipping preference. AFAIR critics outside fandom generally agreed that it's very good.

On the plus side: terrific story, tremendous emotional impact, good characterisation throughout, kick-ass female characters, and JB's acting is better and more consistent than either before or after. The only downside I can think of is that it's really, really bleak, so if that's not your kind of thing, you should probably avoid it.

Really? I had no particular shipping preferences and I wasn't in the fandom, and I disliked it. Like you said, it's extremely bleak, and pointlessly so, IMO, so that was my dealbreaker. I need my cynicism to come packaged with a purpose beyond "shit happens, people are horrible, the end".

It did have a smidgen of a purpose beyond that: "shit happens, people are horrible, the Doctor shouldn't help us because we suck so much and therefore his entire life has been pointless, the end."

So it has a bit of a reach beyond just the events of the series, albeit an even more depressing one.

AYRT

...I think you just managed to make it worse; I didn't know that was possible. I amend my statement: I need my cynicism to come packaged with a redeeming purpose, because wow.

I don't think it's bad, I just wish it hadn't happened. I like my corny, OTT sci-fi to be corny and OTT and fun. CoE is not fun.

There are definitely some moments I think are executed poorly, but I don't think it's bad in itself. The villian does become a bit ridiculous towards the end, but the acting's pretty strong IIRC.

I've not watched it recently enough to really say anything more. It's just not an enjoyable evening for me.

It's not terrible or anything. I would go ahead and give it a shot

Probably the thing I like least about it is that it's just...not fun. I liked Torchwood because it was goofy and didn't usually take itself too seriously but CoE is quite different from that. It's also depressing right off the bat because you're like "Oh shit, Tosh and Owen are dead aren't they?".

Still, I would say that the story line was interesting and I found it at least somewhat compelling most of the time. But you're right that a lot of people had very different reactions to it, so I think the only way you'll find out if you'll like it is if you watch it yourself. It can't hurt

I think the only way you'll find out if you'll like it is if you watch it yourself

Yeah, I agree in this case. CoE is just one of those things where a lot of people hated it for the same reasons that other people loved it. For example, I saw a lot of fans who approved the fact that CoE let Torchwood shed most of its campyness in exchange for a more consistently serious and dark storyline. For other fans, they found that to be the biggest mistake that could have been made regarding Torchwood.

Yeah, I think that's why I really disliked it. Coming after the season two finale, AND with the events of CoE... well, I was watching Torchwood because it wasn't totally grimdark, and I loved the team dynamic. So when you kill off three out of five members of the team? It just basically destroys my interest, and that's on top of the horrifically depressing plot. I didn't even bother with Miracle Day, because what was the point? There was very little in there that made it Torchwood.

Yeah - you should just give it a shot, OP. Personally, I liked it, but I can understand why a lot of people didn't. Maybe I just liked it because my favourite character is Gwen, and CoE had a lot of her. Or maybe because I liked the moral conflict in it. These might be the same aspects that other people hated.

In any way, there are a lot of aspects to it that are YMMV, and people's reactions vary. That's okay; we're not a homogenous blob. People have different preferences. Probably the only reason it caused so much wank is that it is different in tone to the original Torchwood, so the people who disliked it felt shafted.

Children of Earth was objectively well-done, I think. Fascinating story, great acting, suspenseful pacing, compelling moral conflicts, the works. But it exhausted all my emotional investment with its sheer cynicism. When it was over, I just didn't care anymore, not about the surviving characters, and not about Torchwood as a concept. I couldn't watch Miracle Day after that, even though it seems objectively interesting, too.

To be fair, the show had been sliding deeper into a pit of bleakness (for me, maybe other people weren't affected) for awhile before Series 3. Children of Earth just put a bullet in its head.

Yeah. A lot of people raise a stink about how CoE was such an unwarrantedly bleak turnaround from what TW was before, which always confused me because it had been pretty fucking depressing for a while before CoE -- it's just that before CoE, there was enough goofiness and fun and Doctor-Who-ish-ness to suggest that maybe the fun could override the bleakness, and CoE just made the "lol no it won't" definite.

Actually come to think of it, Doctor Who had been pretty much on the same track until Series 5 came along. Maybe RTD was going through a bad time...

Basically, it's a very well-written story with a great concept, top-notch execution and acting, and some really brilliant moments, but it's depressing and bleak - and excessively bleak, not necessarily so - and pretty exhausting. For me, it was impossible to go back and rewatch Torchwood with any kind of enthusiasm or investment after seeing CoE without waiting a good long while for my memory of CoE to fade.

Also, while the story is very good when taken all on its own, it's got a whole lot of little plot holes peppered throughout it in order to make the idea that provides the basis for the story believable.

I ship Jack/Ianto, so a lot of people are probably going to think I didn't like CoE because of that. I won't lie, the reaction was loud from my corner of fandom largely because of Ianto's death, but I had a lot of other reasons for not enjoying the season.

First and foremost: CoE is very different in tone, content and execution from the first two seasons. I watched the first two seasons for a reason - I enjoyed that particular type of episode structure. They changed things up completely for CoE, and the new format is not one I personally enjoyed. The five-episode arc could have been done well, but instead it just became a vehicle for them to really show off how terrible their plotholes can be.

Plotholes are a Torchwood staple, but they're a little more easily overlooked in the first two seasons because 1. those were episodic, so there were some stronger episodes to weigh out the worse ones and 2. those weren't trying so hard to be "gritty" and "real".

That last bit sums up the majority of my problems with CoE. It tried very hard to present itself in a particular light. Unfortunately, it was bleating about how dark and gritty it is so often that it came off as trying too hard. I couldn't take it seriously. It's not even the fact that it's uniformly depressing all the way through, as other commenters have said. It's that it does "uniformly depressing" really badly. There has to be a point to it, even if the point is that there is no point (or that war/fighting/political-bugbear-of-the-day is pointless, to be precise).

CoE did not do that. I got the distinct impression that a majority of what they did (the explosion in the first episode, Jack's capture and what happened to him, Ianto's death, Steven's death) was done solely to get a reaction out of the audience. That's not good story-telling. That's just sensationalism. And that's why I didn't like CoE.

Of course, YMMV. I'm a lit student, so maybe that's why I focus so hard on thematic unity in a story (which CoE doesn't have, to me). If you're approaching it from another angle, it's entirely likely you'll find more to like than dislike. Really, I'd say just give it a shot and decide for yourself. It's only five episodes, so at least it's short. And you're not obliged to watch all five if you decide you don't like it in the end.

My problem is that it was fucking depressing, and not organically depressing, but depressing in a way that made it seem like "being depressing" (and gritty and dark and shocking) was the main point and driving force of the miniseries and all the events that happened. Like, the message of the story is "everything sucks and humans are monsters and what the hell does the Doctor see in us anyway and our lives and all the stuff we thought was important is pretty much pointless and oh wait who cares none of that matters anyway because everyone died."

The story was told very well though, and very well-executed wrt pacing, suspense, acting, emotional moments, etc. I just disliked the whole damn thing from conception. I didn't really have much of a problem with the way it was executed (well, some of the plotholes are a bit noticeable in hindsight, but plotholes are damn hard to avoid in the Whoniverse) so it really comes down to whether you like the concept and conclusion of the story or not, IMO.

I don't ship anyone in TW so I was fine with it. My only issue was a minor disappointment that RTD chose to turn the show into a miniseries; I prefer the first two series because of the greater variety of plotlines and the fact that there are a lot more episodes to watch. But CoE was very good and I always include it in my rewatches of the show.

Strengths: well-acted, cinematography is great, suspenseful as all get-out, and I disagree with others who say it doesn't have a solid plot or interesting aliens
Weaknesses: really dark, clearly character whump for Jack and forces us to realize what a bad person he is/can be

It shows how Jack's progressed, and also shows him backsliding, it's really interesting if you like Jack's redemption arc. Likewise with Miracle Day, wherein Jack gets a chance to redeem himself again. I personally love Jack Harkness's story, so... I watched them all.

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[ SECRET POST #2188 ]

Torchwood: Children of Earth

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