[ SECRET POST #2195 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2195 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 076 secrets from Secret Submission Post #314.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fenm]

THIS.

Ya know I honestly like subtle, subtext-y couples, too. My problem is that when it comes F/F or M/M couples, that's almost all we ever get. d-:

[femme_androgyne]

Me too! In fact, I generally tend to prefer media where the romance ends up being tacked on to fulfill some imaginary quota, where I'd rather it not be there in the first place, so I can understand being for subtext. But "the actual text is cliched and badly done" isn't, imo, a good reason to want more subtext. It's a reason to start insisting that the text we do get be treated with more care. If there are some cases where you'd still they rather stick to subtext (like me with Doctor Who*, for example), then that's fine. There's no reason why there can't be something for everybody.

*I think all ships in Doctor Who should be kept to subtext. Yes, I am already aware that that's an unpopular opinion.

[(Anonymous)]

There are so few well-written lesbian love stories though. And while a lot of that is bad writing - or only writers who don't get it being in position to get their stuff made - I think it's bigger than that.

The problem's not lesbian love itself. The problem is the relentless existence of homophobia and heteronormativity. So when you have a lesbian story you either have to address those issues - which is exhausting and dispiriting to keep sitting through - or pretend like they don't exist - which is unrealistic and makes the story ring false.

Subtexty stuff means that the heteronormativity is still their, but you get to score against it and undermine it sneakily. Far from perfect, but satisfying when you're sick to death of the shit lesbian storylines get when the bigots and the ignorant aren't oblivious.

[(Anonymous)]

I always kinda eye-twitch when I hear heteronormativity. I think it's because I so often get labeled as a 'Straight Gay' online...and offline.

I've often wondered, what the true opposite of heteronormativity, actually is.

[(Anonymous)]

I suppose it would be homonormative, where everyone is automatically assumed to be in search of a same sex partner.

We don't need that though. We just need people to stop automatically assuming that heterosexual romance is tautological.

Just as we've gradually moved towards using "one" instead of "man" to try to root out kneejerk assumptions about gender in public life.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for the kind reply. I've asked this in real life, and been given responses, I'd rather not repeat here.

[(Anonymous)]

What does "Straight Gay" even mean?

[(Anonymous)]

So when you have a lesbian story you either have to address those issues - which is exhausting and dispiriting to keep sitting through - or pretend like they don't exist - which is unrealistic and makes the story ring false.

I once wrote a short story for class with a gay (male) couple that had nothing to do with the fact that they were gay. My roommate at the time gave me the idea because it is so rare that gay characters are ever treated as just being a part of life, and because it was short, there was no need (or room) to address anything about it. Cue some guy in class asking, "But why two gay guys?" BECAUSE WHY NOT, MOTHERUFCKER. At least the teacher backed me up on that one.

It still baffles me that we need some "reason" to have a gay couple or just a gay character. The stories I write now have gay characters (male and female) that just are. They exist, like anybody else in the world, and if there's no narrative reason to address their sexuality, then I'm not going to. I'm hoping more media catches on to this, because the only thing I've seen actually handle it like just another thing has been Teen Wolf.

+10000

[(Anonymous)]

Bless this post! BLESS THIS POST!

I'd love to see more gay couples in fiction, where they are just there, and they have a plot and personality that, does not, fully revolve around their sexuality. As a gay man I fond those rare moments, so refreshing to read.

They exist, like anybody else in the world, and if there's no narrative reason to address their sexuality, then I'm not going to.

Yes please, please keep on with that. I'm doing the same with my writing as well.

+559393935953

[(Anonymous)]

This = awesome idea.

[maverickz3r0]

Four for you, anon! You go, anon.

[(Anonymous)]

I seem to recall a big part of the reason why there hasn't been homosexuality in the Star Trek franchise being, at least in the hands of some producers, that they were afraid they wouldn't be able to get PAST the "why not?" stage. Supposedly there was supposed to be a same-sex couple in First Contact, but the writers backed out because they didn't want to be the focus to be one the couple rather than the characters.

Sad world we live in.

[kamino_neko]

Checking Memory Alpha, no, Lt Hawk (the character in question) wasn't meant to be gay in the movie, and his partner (male or female) was never meant to appear. That was an innovation from a novel featuring his partner (I don't know if Hawk himself is supposed to have survived in those novels or not).

[diabolicalfiend]

No, he still died, but his partner went on to be badass security chief.

[deadtree]

agreed. Also, there was a randomly occurring (biracial!) lesbian couple on Person of Interest (one of the women was the "number of the week" who needed saving)... I don't think any special mention of their being lesbians was made at all. They were treated exactly the same way any other married couple would be treated on the show and that was that.
(Of course, I think about 80% of the comments I read on reviews of that episode were along the lines of "but why were they GAY?!")

[(Anonymous)]

or pretend like they don't exist - which is unrealistic and makes the story ring false.

Aaaaaand this is the exact kind of thing that the sci-fi genre was made for. Pity it's all dismissed as fluff that no one can be serious about.

[femme_androgyne]

Honestly, even if you don't write sci-fi, lesbian relationships aren't all dealing with bigotry all the time. I came out in a small town while still in high school, and I can count the number of times my first gf and I had to handle active bigotry during our year and a half relationship on one hand. I'd imagine if you set your story somewhere more liberal, even in the real, modern world, you could easily have it just not come up (especially for something like a movie that takes place in a short period of time and where the relationship isn't the main focus).

[dazzledfirestar]

That's all very true. But if we're talking about the perspective that the relationship will somehow "ring false" because an imaginary world with (for example) space ships and aliens (who could not fall into any gender we as humans have), space battles etc. is accepting of any sort of couple at all... well, that seems like a pretty bullshit excuse to stick to "that's the way it's done" mentality.

If you're bothering to create an entire world, why wouldn't the cultural aspect of acceptance be something that could be tweaked from our world?

[(Anonymous)]

So when you have a lesbian story you either have to address those issues - which is exhausting and dispiriting to keep sitting through - or pretend like they don't exist - which is unrealistic and makes the story ring false.

In other words, anyone who tries to write a homosexual couple is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I think the "problem" is that your standards are too exacting. You've tied yourself in knots over what constitutes the proper treatment of a homosexual relationship, and you think that anyone who's writing homosexual relationships must do the same. But, the thing is, they don't actually have to.

Far from perfect, but satisfying when you're sick to death of the shit lesbian storylines get when the bigots and the ignorant aren't oblivious.

Why should the fact that bigots and ignorant people trash homosexual storylines stop you from enjoying them? Isn't it in fact giving in to bigotry to say, "well, let's keep this to subtext so that douches don't criticize it?"

[(Anonymous)]

This!

The last thing we need to do is discourage good writers, and good people who are budding writers, from attempting and writing gay relationships.

[(Anonymous)]

*I think all ships in Doctor Who should be kept to subtext. Yes, I am already aware that that's an unpopular opinion.

I'm with you on that one!

[femme_androgyne]

And here I thought I was the only one.

[manifold]

Nope! I think so, too. Textual relationships, at least with the Doctor, have a way of totally overwhelming everything else. Great if you love the ship! Not so much if you don't.

(FWIW, I ♥ Rose, but... that was a little too much, RTD.)

[intrigueing]

I think all ships in Doctor Who should be kept to subtext.

I like me some low-drama established couples, and I don't mind addressing the idea of romance for an episode or two here and there because it's a valid human issue, but the romantic will-they-won't-they subplots themselves I could do without. Sue me for wanting a few things to stay stable and inflexible in a show whose entire premise is to switch setting and genre every week.

[(Anonymous)]

*I think all ships in Doctor Who should be kept to subtext. Yes, I am already aware that that's an unpopular opinion.

No, not really. I mean, you get your fans of actual romance, but a LOT of people are sick of it.