fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2236 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2236 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[Inda series]

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02.

[Les Miserables and Discworld]

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03.

[Three Kingdoms 2010, Legend of Chu and Han]

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04.

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05.

[DBSK]

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06.

[The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (Shivering Isles)]

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07.

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08.

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

09. [SPOILERS for ]

[Umineko no Naku Koro Ni]

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10. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

11. [WARNING for rape]

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12. [possible warning for sexual assault (as I'm sure the thread will contain discussion of it)]

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13. [WARNING for abuse]

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14. [WARNING for rape, abuse, etc]

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15. [WARNING for suicide]

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16. [WARNING for eating disorders]

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17. [WARNING for rape/non-con]

[Homestuck]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #319.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

yeah i think a reasonable analysis of the treatment of sex in ASOIAF has to conclude that it's at best creepy, and at worst harmful and negative. any appeal to historicity is pretty obviously bullshit (both intrinsically, and because - as you point out - of the content of the work, and also because there's fucking dragons and zombies, for fuck's sake)

at the same time, i don't think that necessarily requires people to dismiss the work entirely, and i don't think it makes the series necessarily bad. but i respect that some people disagree.

and also because there's fucking dragons and zombies, for fuck's sake)

So authors shouldn't strive to keep realistic human behaviors in their stories just because the setting happens to have supernatural elements in it? Please tell me how the presence of dragons and zombies diminishes the occurrence of rape.

I'm not saying that rape is handled perfectly in ASOIAF. But that has NOTHING to do with the fantasy aspect.

any appeal to historicity

Historicity /= realism

OK, and what does that change in this particular case?

Yeah. Besides, the OP's argument (which is totally fair) is itself based on an appeal to realism, so...

Two points.

First: I think realism is basically fine (although not necessarily required). If the presentation of rape and sexuality in ASOIAF was realistic, I don't think anyone has a problem with it. So, in this specific case, it's true that realism would not be a bad thing.

Second: the argument from historicity and realism, in the hands of many of GRRM's defenders, often tends to take a form somewhat akin to this: "The presentation of rape in ASOIAF is historically realistic, and this is necessary. The nature of the historical setting would have included rape, and so it is only a shying away from what is unpleasant which leads you to demand its absence. Fidelity to historical truth demands that rape be depicted in a way realistic for the setting; anything else would intrinsically lessen the work; indeed, it would almost be immoral since untrue." This argument is, I think, specious in general (and not just because of the unrealistic elements of GRRM's presentation of rape). But it's also an argument that is deeply affected by the fact that there are zombies and dragons in ASOIAF, because you can't fucking appeal to the the necessity of a unflinching gaze at cruel reality in a setting with fucking dragons and zombies.

So, yes, a realistic portrayal of rape would not be less justified by the inclusion of fantastic elements in the work. But the inclusion of fantastic elements in the work makes the demand for realism more absurd than it already is. And, in addition, I want to say that I think that in general it is not the case that realism is necessarily good or is required in a work of fantasy.

Realism: re human behaviour =/= realism re: the existence of magical creatures.
Otherwise, it'd be perfectly fine for characters to behave in all sorts of completely nonsensical ways because hey! dragons!

Well, I think it is perfectly fine for characters to behave in nonsensical ways in a work of fantasy.

Second: the argument from historicity and realism, in the hands of many of GRRM's defenders, often tends to take a form somewhat akin to this: "The presentation of rape in ASOIAF is historically realistic, and this is necessary.

And, in addition, I want to say that I think that in general it is not the case that realism is necessarily good or is required in a work of fantasy.

I don't think the realism or depiction of rape is necessary, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. The realism is there because that's how GRRM wanted to present his story, not because it needs to be. And that's perfectly fine, because it's HIS story.

Then he's open to criticism for choosing to include it. Especially when it isn't even real realism.

zombies and dragons are real

get out of here

>:(

[ SECRET POST #2236 ]

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