[ SECRET POST #2236 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2236 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.
[Inda series]


__________________________________________________



02.
[Les Miserables and Discworld]

__________________________________________________



03.
[Three Kingdoms 2010, Legend of Chu and Han]


__________________________________________________



04.



__________________________________________________



05.
[DBSK]


__________________________________________________



06.
[The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (Shivering Isles)]


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.


__________________________________________________














[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]













09. [SPOILERS for ]

[Umineko no Naku Koro Ni]


__________________________________________________



10. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]



__________________________________________________














[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]














11. [WARNING for rape]



__________________________________________________



12. [possible warning for sexual assault (as I'm sure the thread will contain discussion of it)]



__________________________________________________



13. [WARNING for abuse]



__________________________________________________



14. [WARNING for rape, abuse, etc]



__________________________________________________



15. [WARNING for suicide]



__________________________________________________



16. [WARNING for eating disorders]



__________________________________________________


17. [WARNING for rape/non-con]

[Homestuck]


__________________________________________________















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #319.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

11. [WARNING for rape]
http://i49.tinypic.com/10igz2b.png

[(Anonymous)]

yeah i think a reasonable analysis of the treatment of sex in ASOIAF has to conclude that it's at best creepy, and at worst harmful and negative. any appeal to historicity is pretty obviously bullshit (both intrinsically, and because - as you point out - of the content of the work, and also because there's fucking dragons and zombies, for fuck's sake)

at the same time, i don't think that necessarily requires people to dismiss the work entirely, and i don't think it makes the series necessarily bad. but i respect that some people disagree.

[(Anonymous)]

haha I love this secret

people really argue that "that's how it was back then"? in talking about a fantasy book series about a fantasy world with dragons and magic fire and dead things that walk around? lol

[insanenoodlyguy]

Other then what first responder mentioned (that we see supernatural creatures from the get go so we know this isn't even psuedo history) you got a pretty damn good point and the best argument of it's kind I've seen yet. Well done.

[intrigueing]

Excellent point.

But I'm REALLY scratching my head at your friends' excuses. It's a fantasy series. There's no realism to be "realistic" about and there's no "back then."

I mean, if he wants to write a series in a society where the threat of rape is all over the place, that's a perfectly legit decision, but "it's realistic" and "that's how it was back then" are not the excuses I'd use.

/tangent

[(Anonymous)]

OP, that is an extremely good point and I can't believe it never even occurred to me.

(And Theon doesn't count as a counterexample because Theon is being assaulted by a Complete Monster, as opposed to the casual, pedestrian, routine rape with which female characters are threatened.)

[sugar_spun]

This is a good point (a very good one, and if it ever comes up, I'll probably use it), but wank ahooooy!

I think it's not exactly malicious sexism on GRRM's part, but rather that it simply doesn't occur to him this ought to be the case, and also because he seemed very fond of treating Jon and the Wall as being his cliche fantasy spot for arguably the first three or four books.

[(Anonymous)]

This secret makes me want fic of Jon and his friends being raped by older members of the Watch.

[fauxkaren]

I don't think it's intentional sexism.

But it is disturbing how GRRM uses rape as a plot point or how he uses it as short hand for "things are bad and scary!"

I especially hate how he uses it as a plot point for male character. E.G. Tysha's rape is all about Tyrion.

GRRM does do a good job with his female characters in general, but the way he handle's rape in the series is one of my major issues with it.

[(Anonymous)]

Funny how none of the SJWs were bothered by the horrific abuse that happened to Theon that they only harp about the mere threat of rape to a female character. I guess sexual abuse doesnt count if happens to a guy. You definitely wouldn't see them shipping Ramsay with a female Reek at least.

[(Anonymous)]

For all that people talk about rape being all over the place in this series, I read the books recently and can't recall very much rape happening. It's talked about a lot, but how many female characters actually get raped?

[(Anonymous)]

Well there was that one guy who was sent to the wall for being the victim of attempted rape, but...that's one guy. (And if you wanted to be realistic, all the uncouth dudebros on the Wall would have raped the tar out of him after he got there. And probably Sam too.)

[celestiel]

What a good secret. It's so obvious now you point it out, I'm kinda ashamed of myself.

And yeah, I personally draw it up to the casual misogynistic cliché of how rape is the natural ~tragic thing~ that can happen to women, and just general thoughtlessness since it's such an easy way to say "just look at how awful everything is!". Though I do think HBO really uh, upped the sexual violence a hell of a lot more than they should have.

[helenadax]

Well, the Wall isn't like a prison because sometimes the watchers go to brothels. And one of Jon's friends ended up at the Wall because he was molested by a noble man. Also, didn't Craster said something about raping Jon too?

Otoh, I think the threats of rape ARE realistic. GRRM has written an imaginary world with elements of fantasy such as magic and dragons. And at the same time, he wants us to realize that this isn't an idealistic world like the Middle Earth. He wants it to feel real. So he uses those threats of rape and the sexism and everything that was real during the Middle Age. Without all of those things, the Seven Kingdoms would be too different from our world some centuries ago.

[(Anonymous)]

Just because there's no rape at the Wall doesn't make the fact that the rape threats towards women in ASOIAF are realistic any less true. And I'm really not sure there's even a medieval society similar enough to the Night's Watch to compare it to for a purpose such as this.

Plus, even without rape, being at the Wall IS a living hell for the Night's Watch. You calling it PG is pretty cute.

Also, there are implications that Tommen and Victarion were both molested by their older brothers at least once. So let's see:

Implied rapes of major male characters: 2

Actual rapes of major male characters: 1

Implied rapes of major female characters: 0

Actual rapes of major female characters: 1

I'm not seeing how the ladies have it so much worse. Unless you're specifically talking about the rape of background characters, most of whom don't even have names and can be counted on one finger. Not that rape is any less horrible just because it happens to certain people and not others, but let's be real. It's still very different when it's a major character that you've come to know and (maybe) love.

Now I'm not saying that you can't be disgusted at the rape in ASOIAF. Rape is disgusting! And if you don't want to read or watch the series, more power to you. But you're really not going to convince me or anyone else that we should have a problem with the way rape is presented in the series.

[(Anonymous)]

+1,000 to this secret. I've had the same thought. My suspicion is the idea of men being raped skeeves GRRM out too much for him to include it.

[teshara]

There's a mention of crows that nest together when people are talking about the wall. I'm assuming they don't mean the mail-ravens.

The older members of the watch break their vows when it comes to whores and love and squabbles among themselves, but there's no mention of someone raping or killing or pillaging while stationed at the wall and getting away with it.

[lunabee34]

I think this is a very valid criticism, OP.

[chardmonster]

Well I personally think the best approach to rape is to just create fantasy worlds where it never ever exists just so we don't have to talk about it because when things aren't described they don't happen

[(Anonymous)]

There are a lot of double-standards with the SJWs. Men can get tortured and castrated to the point that their mind snaps, children can be crippled, but the mere THREAT of rape in a crapsack world is enough to make people think GRRM has an issue with the subject.

That more people were offended by Cersei being forced to walk naked through the streets than they were by half of the stuff that happened to Reek shows where their priorities lie.

[(Anonymous)]

discussions like this make me wonder why anybody actually likes this series.

[atgdng]

There were times during chapters on the wall where I really expected there to be rapes, usually regarding Sam, but other times Jon and Satin. The scenes seemed to be leading up to it, and then it just fizzled out. I don't think GRRM is doing it on purpose, I think the idea of it just didn't entire his mind because deep down the NW are his heroes~

[(Anonymous)]

But neckbeards won't be able to fap to male rape, OP! Bad for sales.

[avatarmn]

I'll admit to having used the realism argument in respect to rape(and misogyny) in Game of Thrones. But you make an excellent point and have given me something to think about.

[(Anonymous)]

You're spot on OP.