[ SECRET POST #2236 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2236 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.
[Inda series]


__________________________________________________



02.
[Les Miserables and Discworld]

__________________________________________________



03.
[Three Kingdoms 2010, Legend of Chu and Han]


__________________________________________________



04.



__________________________________________________



05.
[DBSK]


__________________________________________________



06.
[The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (Shivering Isles)]


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.


__________________________________________________














[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]













09. [SPOILERS for ]

[Umineko no Naku Koro Ni]


__________________________________________________



10. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]



__________________________________________________














[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]














11. [WARNING for rape]



__________________________________________________



12. [possible warning for sexual assault (as I'm sure the thread will contain discussion of it)]



__________________________________________________



13. [WARNING for abuse]



__________________________________________________



14. [WARNING for rape, abuse, etc]



__________________________________________________



15. [WARNING for suicide]



__________________________________________________



16. [WARNING for eating disorders]



__________________________________________________


17. [WARNING for rape/non-con]

[Homestuck]


__________________________________________________















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #319.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

haha I love this secret

people really argue that "that's how it was back then"? in talking about a fantasy book series about a fantasy world with dragons and magic fire and dead things that walk around? lol

[(Anonymous)]

Quite often.

[(Anonymous)]

All the fucking time. There's constantly this weird appeal to realism and rigor and logic in fantasy (and SF, but it's a different, and arguably more justifiable, thing in SF than in fantasy). And it takes all kinds of forms - I think it's the same impulse that demands rigorously logical magic systems, for instance. It's the same thing that (in part) made ASOIAF so popular in the first place - the death and the political machinations and the violence led a lot of people to perceive it as more realistic - and obviously in this case it's also the kind of thing where emotional involvement is leading people to try to find some way to defend the thing.

See also M John Harrison's great essay "What It Might Be Like To Live In Viriconium" for more on this.

[cloud_riven]

Yes, they really do. Sometimes it's brought up as a kudos for realism.

[(Anonymous)]

Personally, while I generally dislike the excuse of "that's how it was back then" for fantasy, it seems different to me with ASOIAF because it is designed specifically to be commentary on a specific point in history as well as on how crappy it actually is to live in the stereotypical fantasy world.

That being said, I agree with this rant because of the difference in the "realism" of things happening to women vs. men and because the way it is written often ends up being creepy and objectifying rather than just commentary.

[yeahscience]

Eh, I think the OP makes a really solid point here, but there is a reason people bring up the realism factor: ASOIAF is supposed to be very much a Watchmen-style "okay what if this medieval fantasy shit actually did happen?" deconstructive story, and specifically takes a lot of influence from pre-Renaissance England and the War of the Roses. I do think that to remove some of the grimmer but more realistic depictions -- not only rape but like the descriptions of people starving and covered in shit and so on -- would basically turn it into exactly the sort of fantasy series GRRM is subverting.

Not to say I think he couldn't do a lot better with those issues, because I do, and like I said I think the OP has a really strong criticism here. But I think it's kind of missing the point to be like LOL WHO CARES ABOUT THE REALISM? That's a big part of the setting.

[teshara]

The thing that gets me is that all the scandelous stuff always happens to characters that claim their ancestors got it on with animals/dragons.

These people are not human. They don't have to be humanistic. One day a Lannister's going to pop out a kitten and they're going to claim it's some sign of superiority.

[makoro]

AS LONG AS THAT KITTEN IS A LION CUB

[teshara]

A lion cub that suspiciously resembles the Kingslayer... :D

I would totally donate money towards the bribe needed to make that canon.

[(Anonymous)]

The whole "lol what realism, it's a FANTASY story" argument is such a silly strawman. When people say "that's how it was back then" they're not implying that ASoIaF is meant to take place in the real world, they're commenting on how GRRM intended it to a semi-realistic commentary on a specific time period. Basically what the person above me said.

[(Anonymous)]

naw, I just think that "that's how it was back then" is a stupid argument when used to claim the author had no say in including a certain element.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes. I find GRRM's depiction of the effects of dragons and ice zombies on 15th century English society particularly illuminating.

C'mon, son. It's a work of fantasy, hence a created reality, and anything in there is the choice of the author. GRRM chose what aspects of history he wanted to comment on, and how; every element of it that's problematic is something that he chose to include in the world he created. You can't just say "there was rape in 15th century Europe, so there had to be rape in this". The fact that "that's how it was back then" does not end the argument, because there are things in the work that were NOT how it was back then and things that were how it was back then that are not in the work. It's ultimately down to the author's choice of HOW to interpret and comment on that historical reality; and hence we're back where we started.

[(Anonymous)]

No one is saying that there had to be. But not everyone agrees that there never can be rape in a story or commentary on those aspects of historical periods. I absolutely think that the way it is written in ASOIAF is problematic. But the idea of that sort of commentary is not inherently bad.

[(Anonymous)]

IA

[(Anonymous)]

Haha this.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay but...what's wrong with his CHOICE to include rape as it may have happened back then in our world? He didn't have to, but so what? EVERY fiction story is a created reality, whether it takes place in our world or a magical one. If people don't like GRRM's inclusion of rape, there are plenty of other fantasy and non-fantasy stories that don't have rape for them to read.

[(Anonymous)]

gee, I really can't tell what's wrong with his CHOICE to include objectifying and creepy descriptions of how rape might have happened for realsies to women, but not to men

[(Anonymous)]

Especially when the only male rape is actually a female on male one and more of a femdom fetish material for the men.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sure male victims of rape would be happy to hear that.

[(Anonymous)]

da

I personally know one who is.

DA

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with this. But there is a difference between the choice to write it in an objectifying and creepy way and the lack of similar writing on what realistically would have been similar for men and the choice to write that sort of commentary at all. I think it is possible to both say that GRRM's writing is objectifying and sexist and to say the idea of that sort of commentary isn't inherently bad.