fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2237 ]

[ SECRET POST #2237 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2237 ⌋

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I guess because I think my apostasy is a very important part of how I view my religious identity, I guess?

I'm an atheist because I don't believe in a god, and that's pretty much a philosophical/metaphysical belief.

But when I think of religious 'identity', active rebellion against my Catholic upbringing is a huge part of it.

I'd like to think I'm not less respectful than upthread!anon, but "Ex"-Catholic doesn't quite cover the ongoing antagonistic relationship I still have with the Catholic church.

That make any sense?

OP

(sorry I forgot to say I asked the question)

Yes, that makes sense, thanks for replying. You certainly have my sympathies on the ongoing antagonistic relationship. That sounds like a hard position to be in. Do you get a kind of thrill in being actively rebellious against your religious identity? (Just curious.) Or not a thrill exactly but a kind of Three Stooges, tweak-the-nose type of thing?

The reason I asked the original question, was because my belief system considers an "apostate" as someone who has turned away from the right path (my church used to think an apostate was someone who turned away from the church but then ... stuff happened ... and there were a lot of other little churches all of a sudden ... and people started to believe it was the path and not the church ... though I am not 100% on board with that thinking personally), not necessarily that the apostate had turned away from God. Though I realize you don't believe in any gods, so.

Thanks for answering!

Em - yes, I would say that a nose-tweak thrill is definitely part of it. (Excellent analogy, by the way.) It's probably not my noblest quality, but whenever I come across an old line of code in my brain and realise that it's a Catholic dogma that I no longer believe, I do take an angry delight in denouncing it (even if only to myself). Catholicism made me feel ashamed and powerless for a long time, so for the moment at least I enjoy disavowing.

That's interesting about apostasy in your religion, and I think it does ring true for why I choose that word. I wouldn't say that my apostasy and atheism are unconnected, but the former has a lot more to do with the social teachings/political actions of the church than its position on the existence of god.

OP

The analogy is unfortunately true to my past life. :-\ Owing to the "stuff happened" that I mentioned, I was in much the same position for a number of years, and I really did get kind of an internal-rebel-yell thrill out of doing the things that were against my religion. Note I was also quite young at this time! :-) Though it isn't something I'm proud of now, obviously!

I am sorry your religion made you feel ashamed and powerless. No religion should ever do that. :-(

Anon-who-responded-to-this-question-below-you

I definitely agree that Catholic thought patterns can get into your head in sometimes harmful ways, and actively rejecting those ideas can be empowering. In my experience, the psychology of guilt and unworthiness is pretty prevalent in Catholicism -- not so good for a kid with a burgeoning anxiety disorder.

NAYRT (in fact, the anon below that you discussed Spreadsheet!Anon with)

As another former Catholic who kind of identifies with the idea of apostasy, it's not a nose-tweaking or rebellious thing for me. It's more that I feel that my religious upbringing was something that was done to me before I had any say about the issue, or had the faculties to really examine what I was being taught, and it caused me no little anxiety before I eventually came to the realization of my atheism. To complicate matters further for me, my mother taught catechism classes when I was younger, and I used to help her in the classroom as an older child -- which, in retrospect, feels like I was supporting and participating in something that I now resent having been done to me, and contributing to an organization that I now have strong disagreements with. As such, opposition to the religion of my childhood has become a part of my current religious (or non-religious) identity.

Anon to Whom the Anon to Whom You Were Replying Was Replying ;)

I think that feeling of Catholicism being something that was done to you is something I feel very strongly too. Perhaps someday I'll feel rid of Catholicism entirely, but for now it still informs my religious stance.

OP

(Quick question, "catechism classes" = Bible lessons classes? The Wikipedia page is ... extraordinarily obtuse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism)

Thank you for providing a counterpoint! In the spirit of IDIC and all that! :-)

With everything that has been in the news, do you think if maybe your religion was not as systematically ... uhhh problematic (I am not sure how to word that respectfully and still get the point across) as it was, you would not feel that it had "been done to you"? Or is it that you had no choice at all?

I guess I can see where that would be disenfranchising; I never had that, since we were expected to, once we reached pre-teen / teenage years, look into our faith and really study it for ourselves, and prove it (or not ... though the "or not" bit was not as easy as I am making it sound) and then decide whether or not we were going to continue to follow the path.

At least, that was the theory. In actual fact, it was like we had a choice, but it was a choice between a very bad thing, and the only right thing. Not that I'm saying that that was the right way to frame it (it wasn't and that was why we had the problems we did) ... but I can see where you and the other ex-Catholic anon upthread would be very disempowered by having your fate decided for you, with no free will to make your own choices. :-(

FWIW, I'm sorry?

As far as I'm aware from a "recovering Catholic" mother, catechism classes are very specifically Catholic Bible classes, as much about conventional teachings and rules of the Church as the actual text.

NAYRT

The Catechism is a set of questions and answers learned by rote - a sort of FAQ of the faith. Ususally it's something that you learn to parrot off before you even understand what half of the words mean.

Linky - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

OP

Thank you! Now why couldn't the Wiki page have said that??

(Yes, catechism classes = Sunday school/religious education.)

I think... I think that all the moral complaints I have against the Catholic Church certainly contribute to the degree to which I wish to divorce myself from it now, but even if the religion itself was entirely benign, it was still an experience to which I was very much a passive recipient. While my family wasn't incredibly conservative or hard-line about their religion, there also wasn't really much of any awareness or acknowledgement that there were other religious positions available. For instance, I didn't discover that there was any such thing as atheism/not-beliving-in-God-at-all until I got the internet when I was in my teens. My only knowledge or exposure to other religious views for much of my early life was that Jewish people didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, and some vague notion that Protestants were Christian, but not Catholic. My family's religious beliefs were treated as objectively true in sort of a passively un-self-aware kind of way, as if the notion that they could be otherwise had never entered their minds. So in a very real sense, I feel that I wasn't provided with any other options, in that I was not informed that other options existed. Even when I had doubts or unanswered questions in my childhood, they didn't really go anywhere, because I didn't know there was anywhere else those doubts could take me.

So to sum up, while the moral complaints I have regarding the Catholic Church make me more displeased that Catholicism was imposed on me in childhood, those moral issues don't really factor into my feeling that it was something "done to me."

And thanks. :)

OP

I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, but I think that mindset, of there-are-no-other-religions-out-there-but-ours isn't necessarily endemic to Catholics.

There are also some religions that do teach about other world religions (like mine), but they teach about them from the viewpoint of, "this is what the people of this world believe now but that's all going to go away in a little while." (Protip: A little while is a lot longer than it seems, apparently.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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