[ SECRET POST #2242 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2242 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 022 secrets from Secret Submission Post #320.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think Regina is perfect and angelic or anything like that. However, neither is anyone else on the show. And when I argue that Emma shouldn't have Henry, that doesn't necessarily mean that I think Regina should have him. It means Emma signed away her freaking parental rights and she does not get to change her mind about it. I was actually okay with it when Charming had Henry, as grandparents sometimes get custody in cases like this. I am so not okay with Emma treating Henry as her son. He is not, has never been (well, since whenever she signed the adoption papers), and he should never be.

[(Anonymous)]

I have to admit, I find the way that the writers are handling adoption and all it's issues in an immensely troubling way. Emma signed away her rights, so does she really deserve to be his mother after all this? Even her biological claim isn't a guarunteed parent card. Still, it seems to be that Emma is paraded as some kind of pantheon of motherhood.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I agree that the way adoption has been handled has been horrific. Granted, there is the mitigating factor of TPTB turning Regina into a much more black than gray moral character, but still. Biological parents do not get to meet their biological offspring and decide that they are totally devoted to them/in love with them and get to "claim" them back as their children. It does not work like that. It should never work like that. At least in my opinion. And, yes, I also agree that TPTB are trying to parade Emma around as "some kind of pantheon of motherhood", and it really disturbs me. More than most of the other things on this show.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm glad you agree with me, it has been something that has kind of bothered me as a I watch Ouat. Two questions though what does tpbt and ayrt mean? I see it around the forum alot but never know what it means? Is there some kind of dictionary for these around?

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT is "the anon you are replying to", so you know I am not a new anon, and TPTB is "the powers that be" (basically the producers, writers, whatever of a show/movie). :)

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks so much!

[(Anonymous)]

agreed

[(Anonymous)]

+1

[(Anonymous)]

"Pantheon"?

[ex_paola492]

...+1

The whole thing, I swear....

[(Anonymous)]

Anon you have read my mind.

[vongroovy]

This this this this this.

Ugh, the show has such a fucked up view of family and adoption and parental rights, and it's been upsetting me since episode one.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Me too. So much me too. While I was able to overlook it somewhat in the first season, it has just become a larger and larger issue for me as the show has gone on.

[(Anonymous)]

I really don't understand people who claim that the show's treatment of Regina's parental rights means that the show or showrunners or whatever are anti-adoption. Along with Emma's crappy time in the foster system it makes me head-tilt a bit, but Regina is not a fit mother, and I don't understand how people can argue that point. She poisoned Henry. And I don't get why people can shrug that off because she intended to put his biological mother in a coma instead. That's on top of having raped the Huntsman for thirty years and then killed him when he tried to get away. Serial rapists≠good adoptive parents. And it's not like bio-parents on this show are exactly paragons, so I don't think the writers are idolizing blood-relationships (look at Regina's relationship with Cora!) so much as using adoption and Emma's time in foster care as plot points to up the drama in the drama-rama-ding-dong that is Once Upon a Time. It's basically Disney+sprinkle of fairy tales+soap opera.

[(Anonymous)]

Did you read what I wrote?

I said that I wasn't arguing for Regina to be Henry's mother again. I was saying that Emma most certainly was not Henry's mother. And that I didn't appreciate TPTB making it seem like as soon as a biological mother meets her offspring they form a connection. A connection which causes the biological mother to want to claim the child, causes the bio mom to love the child totally and completely, and causes the bio mom to be the perfect person to have the child. No.

[(Anonymous)]

The comment I replied to didn't mention magical bio-parent and child instant connections, just that you thought neither Regina nor Emma should have a claim to Henry. I actually think that in a case like this, Emma should have the chance to parent Henry if she wants to, because I have a sneaking suspicion that the adoption wasn't legal. For one thing, I'm absolutely certain Baelfire never signed over his rights to Henry, since he never knew he existed. Also, since everyone in Storybrooke is breaking laws left, right, and center, (if appearing from another universe isn't illegal immigration I don't know what is) why are adoption laws suddenly sacrosanct? I get that in real life, having people say that adopted parents aren't "real" parents sucks. Anyone who signs the right papers and raises a kid to maturity without abusing them is a real parent, and fuck people who say that blood trumps everything. But acting like Emma and Henry's connection somehow spits in the face of adopted families everywhere weirds me out.

Not every biological parent on the show forms some kind of magical unbreakable bond with their offspring. Look at Archie and his parents, or, again, Cora and Regina. I think the reason Emma forms a bond with Henry is that, in the pilot, she's desperately lonely, and so is Henry. Henry gloms onto her because she's an alternative to Regina. So they do have a bond, but it's not necessarily healthy. Just healthier than Henry's relationship with Regina. And Emma doesn't initially mean to take Henry from Regina--she only seriously entertains the idea when she starts realizing how cruel and manipulative Regina is.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I actually think that in a case like this, Emma should have the chance to parent Henry if she wants
And that is where you and I vastly disagree. No. She should not. She intended to give Henry up for adoption, she did give Henry up for adoption, and she doesn't get to decide to change her mind a decade later.

I'm absolutely certain Baelfire never signed over his rights to Henry, since he never knew he existed.
So Baelfire has a claim. That has nothing to do with a potential claim for Emma.

why are adoption laws suddenly sacrosanct?
Obviously they aren't. As TPTB seem to think they shouldn't be. But this is one of the issues I have with the show. Because our life where we view this is related to what TPTB do/draws on it/reflects it. They are not writing in a vacuum. And supposedly the Storybrooke stuff is supposed to be RL. At least to an extent. And the views TPTB have been showing from the start is that adoption means nothing next to the connection "true love" from a biological mother can bring.

But acting like Emma and Henry's connection somehow spits in the face of adopted families everywhere weirds me out.
You really have no problems with the "instabond" just because they share genes and Emma is not socially well-adjusted enough to have any relationships of her own when Henry finds her? (Henry gets a break on that, considering his circumstances.)

It's not that I think that they are invalidating adoption, necessarily. It's the way the Emma/Henry relationship is set up that bothers me. (I mean how many adoptive kids have a fantasy that their real parents are princes/princesses who will swoop in and save them so they don't have to deal with things like being grounded by their meanie adoptive parents? More than a couple. And this plays into that childish fantasy. And I dislike it. A lot.)

I think the reason Emma forms a bond with Henry is that, in the pilot, she's desperately lonely, and so is Henry. ... So they do have a bond, but it's not necessarily healthy.
But it is being presented as healthy. Emma's true love for Henry after barely knowing him is what saves him. No other alternative is really considered other than that she would be the perfect mother for Henry. Everyone acknowledges that this is the perfect idea and she should totally be his mother, no questions asked. It isn't healthy. It shouldn't be seen as healthy. Yet it is.

[(Anonymous)]

I wasn't adopted. I desperately wished I could be adopted away from my biological parents, and had fantasies of my "real" parents saving me from my blood relatives, because "real parents," to little me, meant people who gave a crap about me, not people who contributed to my genetic makeup. Kids in shitty situations want out, and adopted kids don't have a monopoly on crappy parents.

Henry wasn't dealing with a mother who grounded him. Regina sent him to therapy for noticing that he was the only person who aged in a town where no one ever left, to try and convince him that he was crazy. As for what Baelfire has to do with Emma, if they end up together and Bae becomes (what passes for legally) Henry's father, what happens to Henry? For that matter, what alternative did Henry have but to seek Emma's help? Regina and Jefferson are, so far as we know, the only people in Storybrooke who know the curse is a real thing until Emma shows up. Until Emma shows up, Jefferson is housebound (and nuts). Henry can't just take a bus to the next nearest city, walk into a CPS office, and claim that his mother is abusing him by making him live in a town where nothing changes and no-one ages.

And I guess the biggest difference between us is that I'm looking Once Upon a Time as an interesting story that's playing around with fairytale tropes in a fun way (including tropes about Real Family which are skeevy when applied to the real world), where you're looking at it as a story that perpetuates harmful stereotypes about adoption. If it's any consolation, unless it's proven otherwise I have a sneaking suspicion that Rumpelstiltskin, arguably the most fanatically devoted parent on the show, isn't actually Bae's biological father.

SPOILER FOR "Manhattan"

[cbrachyrhynchos]

I don't think that Emma is presented as a perfect mother at all. She spends almost all of Season 1 lying to Henry, and her pissing match hurts him so much that Archie calls her out on it. In, Season 2 she's determined when it comes to protecting Henry, but mostly panicked when it comes to parenting Henry. (She primarily lives with Henry because Regina gave David temporary custody. If anyone is the parental Mary Sue in the narrative, it's Snow/MM who keeps giving Emma the moral lesson. And as "Manhattan" reveals, Emma doesn't always follow it.

SPOILER

"Manhattan" nicely sets up a symbolic parallel between Emma and Rumple as parents. Both think they're doing the right thing, but end up breaking their childrens' faith as a result of their own actions.

[(Anonymous)]

For one thing, I'm absolutely certain Baelfire never signed over his rights to Henry, since he never knew he existed.

Here's the problem: Neal (Baelfire) has to be legally identified as the father to have any legal rights. An unmarried woman in the US can easily give her child up without the father's permission if she says she can't identify him. If the adoption process went about legally, Emma would have to state in court that she could not identify the father and explain the circumstances of her pregnancy. The judge would then terminate the father's rights.

Now Neal is obviously unaware of Henry and Mr. Gold appears to be unaware that Neal is Henry's father, meaning we can assume that Emma did NOT identify Neal as the father when she gave Henry up. Why would Mr. Gold, had he known Neal was Henry's father, not have used Henry to lure Neal to him? I think we can assume that Emma relinquished Neal's paternal rights by refusing to identify him.

[(Anonymous)]

If you just go off of Regina as abusive and Emma coming in only after she sees Regina mistreating Henry, it's not necessarily anti-adoption. The problem is when other characters continuously guilt Emma into doing things by telling her she's Henry's mother, i.e., she has an obligation to help him by virtue of being biologically related. THAT's problematic as all hell. The idea that biological family trumps all and you have an obligation to biological children even after you relinquish rights was reinforced in the Hansel and Gretel story.

The stereotypical treatment of foster care is also problematic. Sure, there are foster parents who aren't great...but there are long lists of requirements to become and stay a foster parent, the "pay" (actually reimbursements and vouchers that don't begin until at least a month after the kid's lived with you) is shit, social workers deal directly with foster children (so abuse is rooted out quickly), and foster kids often have, for obvious reasons, numerous physical and mental problems. You know what a foster kid who bounces from family to family and becomes independent at sixteen (two years before the average US age of majority when foster care ends) says to me? A severely troubled kid, not a bad foster care system.

[(Anonymous)]

A lot of people forget that Emma at first just wanted to make sure Henry's in a good home. To which Regina reacted violently and convinced Emma it's not a good place for any kid.