[ SECRET POST #2262 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2262 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #323.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[insanenoodlyguy]

They aren't oppressed on a whole. They chose this for themselves.

[aubry]

Thing is, we don't know if that's true. There's no history of house-elves offered, so we only see the status quo. Hermione trying to save them despite themselves is clearly the wrong approach, but 'they must like it because it's their culture' has just blazingly wrong resonances.

[(Anonymous)]

Given no other information, we have to take them at their word. The problem is that it has such terrible resonances at our world but what can you do? JKR made a race that likes being enslaved, and such a thing is not impossible to imagine, as gross and bizarre as it seems to our sensibilities.

[aubry]

It's been awhile since I've read HP, so I might be forgetting some stuff here. Do we ever actually have a house-elf articulate that they enjoy being enslaved? My memory is more that there was a visceral reaction against the idea of being suddenly made free (which would make sense if they've been instituionalised) + wizards on the other side also talking on their behalf.

And Dobby - for all his exceptionalism - is proof that at least some of them are enslaved against their will.

[(Anonymous)]

They categorically reject the notion of being paid, tend to treat being freed as a threat, and are very gung-ho about serving humans.

Certainly there's always exceptions but Winky seems closer to the house-elf norm than Dobby.

[(Anonymous)]

Even if they reject the notion of being paid, the vast, VAST majority of society never gives them the option. And it appears that Dumbledore didn't even provide that option until AFTER Harry freed Dobby, so they are probably unsure whether their current master actually wants them to opt for that. I think that probably makes a difference in their decision making. Harry will be out of Hogwarts in 6 years but the elves will all still be there, so who knows what they think might happen after he's gone? Once he's gone and has lost all interest in the happenings at Hogwarts (which he only had minor interest for in the first place), who knows what the headmaster might think about their defection to hired staff, or whether they'll be punished for it.

[(Anonymous)]

there's no evidence whatsoever of houselves being anything less than sincere in the opinions they express, though

[(Anonymous)]

Sure there is, there's Dobby. He never actually says anything against the institution that enslaves him, he just starts punching himself when he says anything against Malfoy specifically. It is also portrayed like it's something he can't help, like he HAS to hurt himself if he says anything about Malfoy. The reading of that makes it seem like there is some kinda binding magical contract that forces the elves to self-injure if they express an emotion against their owner. The very existence of such a magical contract would imply that elves weren't necessarily willing participants in the slavery, but the fact that there is this abusive instinct/contract even when it's just their personal agency expressing negative emotions outside of the awareness of their owners... I mean, that's magical, physical censorship. So they would be physically unable to express anything apart from approval of their situation. That makes everything positive they say questionable in its sincerity.

[(Anonymous)]

See, the thing is - you're pulling that out of your arse. This is a debate about whether or not you take what the book tells you at face value. It's pointless, nobody can be right.

[(Anonymous)]

No, I'm pulling that out of the entire 2nd book. We don't get an alternate idea of house elves until later. So as a stand-alone, it's pretty convincing. And the things that come after are not as strong.

[(Anonymous)]

"I don't believe the later books"?

Anyway, it's still so much imply all up in your comments, surely you realise that it's all that is to it.

[fadeinthewash]

I had the impression that Dobby's self-harm was part of some reflexive, instinctual loyalty to the family he belonged to. Like a nutty religious type self-flagellating themselves for sinning or something. Though I wouldn't be surprised by a magic contract.

[(Anonymous)]

Doesn't Kreacher self-harm the same way? He makes it clear he hates serving Sirius and Harry at first but he still has to punish himself.