[ SECRET POST #2262 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2262 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #323.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

BUT THEY LIKE IT~

(Say most HP fans who will respond to this comment.)

Honestly, this is one of the most problematic aspects of the series for me. Yes, most of the elves in the books appear to be 'happy', but fiction doesn't exist solely in itself, there is a whole literary history that is applied. Everything we've ever read that applies to real-world ethics implies slavery is wrong, always. And the fictions that portray slaves as happy in their forced labor are always pointed out as being total fictions and an attempt to make slavery more palatable to people who would be averse to seeing them as real living people. As a result, you do immediately have the response of Katie in Cracked After Hours - someone points out to you that the elves are happy to be enslaved, and you think 'just like the slaves in Uncle Tom's Cabin.' It's very difficult to take it seriously, even though they're magical fictitious creatures. The same problem comes up with the way Goblins are treated in the books, very 'family unfriendly aesop'.

Almost all aspects of the HP novels use magical realism. The whole of the series is meant to be taken through the filter of real life, exploring real world issues through magical means. It's just one of many ways to deconstruct the things in our society. So at this point it sounds totally ridiculous when people say 'but they aren't humans, they're magic creatures that love being slaves!' Especially if you're going to argue that other aspects of the world are meant to be held against real life to get a meaningful reading.

I think JKR wanted to explore some very touchy issues of racial or cultural prejudice, and she created these magical races in order to do that. Maybe the elves are based on Brownies, but there was no need for her to actually include that in her story. It was a choice on her part in order to explore a particular issue, which is the one first presented to us ('slavery is wrong!') and then her execution totally fell apart later. Maybe she has her own prejudices that colored the narrative, but I think it's more likely she just lost interest in the particular issue and as a result the message the books give is distorted and confusing.

[(Anonymous)]

And by 'the same problem comes up with ... Goblins', I don't mean that they are presented in a way that supports slavery - I mean that there was an intended message behind their presence in the stories that is only suggested by a few lines of dialogue from minor characters, but loses all its integrity through the narrative and the way the main characters/author talk about them.

[(Anonymous)]

Also, biological determinism!

[(Anonymous)]

a+

[(Anonymous)]

ALSO, I don't think for a second that young readers will come away confused. Kids have so many other sources bringing home the 'racism and slavery and abuse of any kind is wrong' message that they are not relying solely on Harry Potter to teach them that. But I think it causes problems when under the microscope of adult readers with a strong impulse to analyze the subtleties of fiction (so, you know, fandomsecrets).

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think that any of Harry Potter is magical realism or anything other than magic. I don't think that it's coherent or realistic or applicable to the real-world in the way you're making it out to be - it falls apart pretty quickly, and I don't think that's a problem. That doesn't mean that it can't have application to reality, but it's not a mirror of reality.

Yes, in the real world, slavery is always wrong and depictions of slavery where slaves are happy are usually propaganda, but that's not in itself a reason for that to be the case in the fiction here. At best we can say that JKR fucked it up one way or another - and to me, that's no real justification for saying "Clearly, house-elf slavery is wrong." It's certainly not impossible to imagine a hypothetical race of beings that does enjoy slavery, as troubling as that can be for us.

I think it's a flaw in the series one way or another. But it seems really lazy to take the interpretation that's most in line with our moral viewpoint and assumptions. And, moreover, I think the approach that this is in some way limited in an in-universe sense - that there's some narrator presenting the world of Harry Potter in a flawed, prejudiced way - is nonsense.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think most people have problems with the narrative itself over this issue, I think people tend to blame JKR and have problems with her personally over it. I think the problem with the elves and the goblins in particular is that JKR successfully manages to include a whole lot of other mythical/magical creatures without creating the same controversy in the fandom. Now, whether it's magical realism or not is up for debate. I personally feel it is, but that's probably not the most relevant factor in this issue anyway. I think that people see how she treats other creatures, like giants and werewolves and even totally invented ones, like veelas, and has created a culturally complex world for them.

But then there are ones like house elves, which actually get much more narrative attention and even specific focus on their social status, and the intention behind their inclusion becomes totally unclear. Harry sees Dobby, he sees how Dobby suffers, and he manages to trick Malfoy into freeing Dobby. And in this situation, the most prolonged and significant relationship between a main human character and a house-elf, Harry's decision is the right one, and Dobby is extremely grateful and happy to be free. But then she comes in with this other message, when Hermione is the one trying to free elves, and she's portrayed as in the wrong and someone who doesn't really understand the people she's trying to help. Combine this with Dobby's total subservience and devotion to Harry (which on its own wouldn't be such a problem, because Dobby comes from such an abusive background), and JKR's intention becomes really muddled and disturbing. For some readers, anyway. It's no longer possible to understand what she meant by including House Elves at all, and you are forced to pick one side or another. That House Elves like being servants and should be enslaved for their own well-being, or the opposite, that their slavery is wrong.

Man, this comment is getting weirdly long. I guess, long story short, you and I agree that this is a flaw in the series. But I don't want people to misread my comment as saying that the narrative in HP was meant to be prejudiced - or that I think JKR herself is prejudiced. I don't think the problem lies in the concept of a magical creature that wants to be a servant, because if that were consistently suggested by the narrative it would make sense. But it isn't consistent, her message is totally inconsistent on this topic. And that is enough to send off buzzers. The same way you look at some of these super patriarchal religions and feel skeevy about it - the fact that there are people out there who live their whole lives under these oppressive structures and never get abused does not negate the innate abuse that comes with any system of absolute, undeserved power that is assigned automatically by an institution. Whether or not house elves like being slaves doesn't mean that the wizard world's institutional slavery is acceptable, because it creates situations where someone like Dobby can't do a fucking thing about the abuse they're receiving.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah I guess I can see where you're coming from. To me, it seems like the length that JKR goes to to depict Dobby as exceptional imply that most elves aren't like him and are happy being slaves - that you're placing too much emphasis on the example of Dobby. It's also, I think, the case that Dobby is not only exceptional but had an exceptionally cruel master. But w/e that's besides the point.

I guess it's just weird to me that people will go to these extreme lengths and create these elaborate headcanon justifications and make all this stuff up to find a way to say that house-elves don't actually like being enslaved and they're being oppressed by wizards. It's so bizarre to me because it goes against everything that every house-elf except for Dobby does in the series. People just do not want to accept the possibility that they want to be enslaved, which I completely get in a real world context, but it seems so strange in an explicitly fictional context, and I can't come up with any great explanation for it.

[(Anonymous)]

My personal impression was that the depiction of Dobby as exceptional was not given until AFTER book 2. I mean, through all of book 2 we're told how he's bandaging his fingers and desperately trying to help Harry even though he's somehow obligated to injure himself as a result. Then book 3 comes along and we're getting tiny scenes that imply the elves don't like Hermione or her hamhanded actions. They come across like Hermione is clumsily trying to free people who don't want it, but the image of Dobby is just waaaaay stronger than the stuff that comes later. I feel like if she wanted to give the impression that most elves weren't like Dobby, we would have met at least one other elf during the whole ordeal with Dobby. But we don't, not until after we already have this very pervasive idea about the whole institution that keeps the elves enslaved. So it's clumsy storytelling rather than a deliberately confusing message on JKR's part.

But honestly... I mean, this is fandomsecrets, lmao. The people here are already overly invested in their particular fandoms (I include myself there) and the majority of readers won't give a second thought to the issue in question. That's why I added a comment to make clear that I don't think kids reading the books will suddenly come to the conclusion that slavery is OK because of this book series. But I don't see this issue as being any less significant in the scope of fandom analysis as any of the character problems that come up, you know? Every secret about this series, especially at this point in time, is going to come from someone who is way more interested than most readers will ever be. But it leads to good discussions of the topics there, I think.