Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2013-03-13 06:45 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2013-03-13 06:45 pm
[ SECRET POST #2262 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2262 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #323.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Why wouldn't we focus on what the house elves want? It's like another part of the thread where someone brought up white man's burden. To say that wizards should apply their higher morality to other creatures is a bit like that, to me. I'm not saying that complete slavery is the right option - I'm saying that it bears thinking about that the human perspective is not only not the only one that matters, but it matters less than the house-elf perspective because it is their welfare we're talking about. They're not children.
I'm also not saying the system was perfect. In fact I think it was intentionally portrayed as negative at times. They should be given the choice - but to some even suggesting freedom or payment is frightening and/or dishonoring, I think. I think it depends on the elf. And I don't think Winky's situation was supposed to be seen in a positive light (or Kreacher's for that matter - but I don't think Harry particularly *wanted* to own him anymore than he wanted Harry to own him, he just wanted to serve his precious Dark family, and maybe Harry thought it would be worse if he freed him based on what he saw with Winky and felt some responsibility for him, but I think honestly Kreacher was low on Harry's priority list, which you can argue is a problem with Harry's priorities).
I'm not sure what your last sentence is supposed to mean.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-03-15 03:51 pm (UTC)(link)Why wouldn't we focus on what the house elves want?
Because by doing that (almost always exclusively) it's ignoring the question of whether it's right for wizards to take advantage of House Elves and their natures. It gets turned into something wizards do *for* House Elves, as if elves saying they want to be owned justifies a relationship that's inherently abusive. House Elves are willing to blame themselves for abuse that can and does happen and wizards see no reason to search for ways to limit their own power over elves. It's not oppressing elves for Wizards to say okay, you can have your subservient relationship and bonds to particular people, but here's a whole bunch of laws we Wizards have to follow about it and here's also help you're legally entitled to if you should need it. I don't think it's an insulting compromise to say Elves are going to have rights even if they don't want them.
But wizards don't do that--that's what I meant by saying they leave it up to the elves. As long as the elves aren't formally organizing to complain wizards are happy with elves having no rights too. And that's on them. They don't keep elves because they're doing them a favor. Harry might be a nice enough guy to not want to punish Kreacher by freeing him, but he's also not going to let Kreacher choose and so transfer ownership of him to Bellatrix for obvious reasons. Or not force him to do things that when he really wants something done.
Maybe another analogy that's not perfect for House Elves isn't so much slaves as women. There have been plenty of times and places where women were under the authority of male family members. Many women did and still do consider it proper that they should depend on the whims of men for their own protection instead of having rights of their own. Women who "failed" by being abused or abandoned were ignored in favor of the lucky ones. But whatever men claimed about this being a responsibility for them to take care of women, they actually just enjoyed having all the rights.
no subject
Regulating the relationship between the wizards and the house-elves is a very good idea. I never said it wasn't. I just don't think the wizards should be speaking OVER the house-elves when these matters are brought up for action and revision.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-03-15 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
In a perfect world, the Ministry would have some laws/a council/something pertaining to the organization and status of house-elves, and some elves would speak to the council about their needs, and everyone would be happy and everything would be hunky dory.
One thing I think we could all get behind? Laws that makes abuse of elves (a la Malfoy) illegal and heavily disciplined against.