fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2274 ]

[ SECRET POST #2274 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2274 ⌋

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

This weekend some idiot at the grocery store was handing out flyers citing Wakefield's bullshit claims about the MMR vaccine. We told the manager and he called the police, but they only told her to leave. I was really hoping they'd arrest her on even one of the many misdemeanors they could have charged her with.

what the fuck?

Sure, she's an idiot and her belief system is stupid as hell, but she still has a right to freedom of speech. Why would you want her arested?

Her belief system isn't just stupid, it's fraudulent and dangerous. Wakefield's anti-MMR scam led to hundreds of deaths in the UK. He isn't a licensed doctor anywhere anymore, and he never was in the US. The woman passing out the flyers wasn't posting something on the internet or addressing a lawful assembly, she was on private property without license or consent, harassing that business's customers, spreading dangerous misinformation that the US government has spent millions of dollars in research and campaign funds to counteract.

Here in Texas, where that scum Wakefield lives without citizenship or legal circumstance of any kind that can be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, we have a lot of his disciples doing this stuff every day. Instead of telling them to move on, the police should start arresting them for the misdemeanors they can charge them with and discourage future crackpots from engaging in this same potentially fatal behavior.

Yes.

The police should use their powers to harass these people because they are saying something that you do not agree with.

Good policy.

(I'm not denying that the person's views are wrong and deeply harmful. And certainly the proprietor of the shop or the owner of the property were within their rights to tell her to fuck off. But that's not the same as having the police run them in for whatever minor shit they can find.)

This isn't about viewpoints, it's about scientific fact. The misinformation she, and others like her, spread has the potential to facilitate health epidemics. It amounts to biomedical terrorism. It's because of people like her that the CDC will pour another $34M (average since 2001) this year into campaigns to counteract the fraudulent claims about the MMR vaccine causing autism. That's nearly half a billion dollars just in public awareness campaigns in 13 years. And there was never any truth to Wakefield's claim. Never. Not even a little. He did it because he thought he was on the verge of creating a rival MMR vaccine and he wanted to scare the world into using it.

No, I'm not defending her claim. I agree that it's a wrong claim with no basis in fact and I agree that it's a deeply harmful one, and I've never expressed any opinion to the contrary. We can set aside entirely the question of whether or not her claim is justifiable - it's not - or whether it's harmful - it is. It's a lunatic point of view that's incredibly harmful.

What I'm saying is that her delusional, however harmful, does not merit the use of government force to prevent her from voicing it. It's counterproductive in a lot of ways, but it's also wrong. She may be a loony, but that doesn't mean you can use state powers of coercion to shut her up, as nice as it might be sometimes.

What I'm saying is that her delusional, however harmful, does not merit the use of government force to prevent her from voicing it.

I think it does? Non American but we learned bits about the constitution and government. I understood that if it is something that is harmful then 1st amendment doesn't apply. Wikipedia had this also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions

Not that Andrew Wakefield doesn't have an ass kicking coming more then most of the world, but that's the kind of persecution that makes martyrs, and worse, new converts.

Granted, if she's a repeat offender at the store she probably should be arrested, but a blanket "Oh your an MMR? to jail with you" will be detrimental overall. Especially if they can actually prove they are being targeted which your policy would almost certainly allow them to do.

Edited 2013-03-26 05:55 (UTC)

Good point. I still wish they would or could do something about these people. I can only hope that the parents who receive those flyers have doctors who can spare a few minutes to explain the real benefits vs real side effects if the parents say they don't want to vaccinate their children.

I need to stop thinking about this now because I need to get to sleep and this is the sort of exponentially frightening thing that keeps me awake at night. It's been made worse by above!anon who seems to think it's about beliefs >.

I don't think she's right, I just don't think your policy of getting the police to hassle them for their beliefs (no matter how invalid or unjustifiable or harmful) is a good policy.

I don't know why "the police shouldn't arrest people for their opinions" is something that frightens you. And it IS about their opinions - their opinions might be totally wrong and unjustifiable and harmful, but they're still their opinions, and I don't see how you can justify using the police to punish them for that.

I'm sorry, but that's just the way I see it.

There are federal laws in place about this and other medical misinformation. Local authorities can only charge at their level for things like loitering and harassment, but they can then call in the appropriate federal authorities who can in turn charge the offender(s) with a multitude of things ranging from mayhem to biomedical terrorism.

She can believe that all she wants, she can have private conversations and meetings about it; she cannot distribute the misinformation to the general public. Facts =/= opinions. This isn't a free speech issue; it's a health issue that is directly responsible for deaths. If she handed that flyer to someone who then doesn't vaccinate their child and that child dies of measles or mumps, or if someone else catches it from that child and they die, she can be charged with murder.

I'm wondering now if maybe I didn't make myself clear from the outset. The people here who pass out these flyers and make speeches at places like grocery stores and shopping centers aren't phrasing any of this as opinions. They are claiming that it is a proven fact and citing "Dr. Wakefield" as the source. He's been stripped of his medical license in the UK and been denied one in every other country where he's applied for one (USA, Canada, and India) and it isn't fact. And it is illegal in Texas and all of America to restate his claims as facts.

Ever consider printing your own fliers detailing the career and malpractice of Wakefield, including the fact that no-longer-a-doctor-at-all, etc., and distributing them in public places (as opposed to on private property)?

DA

Truthfully I completely agree with you,. I wish there was some kind of way to deal with these people that wouldn't turn them into heroes or martyrs. Screaming about 1st amendment right or freedom of religion or whatever this particular group hides behind..

I wish they could some how be held accountable for the damages they cause, but they never are, and I truly have no idea how they even could be.

DA

Problem is that what you're talking about ['Hey, you're MMR? TO JAIL WITH YOU!'] *is* technically illegal under the first amendment [assuming you're American - if not...welp. Idk, sorry.] So it wouldn't just make new converts - it would raise the legitimate problem of the government infringing on citizen rights.

Singling them out would make martyrs and yes it's a bad idea because of that. It isn't illegal to arrest them for spreading misinformation about public health, which is a federal offense. Even if it weren't a federal offense, the First Amendment doesn't cover fraud or lies. Specifically, there is a "false statements of fact" exemption as ruled by the Supreme Court that not only means spreading these false claims isn't protected, but that the action is punishable by law.

if you really think you can get cops down there to arrest them on medical misinformation, by all means go for it.

Hint: You're more likely to get carted away while they are just shooed of so stop hoping for an avenue that's not going to materialize.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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