[ SECRET POST #2293 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2293 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 105 secrets from Secret Submission Post #328.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, things would've been different. But I honestly don't blame her *at all* and don't get why other fans DO.

I mean, maybe I'm weird, but if my loving husband who I'd already built a family with showed up one day and revealed that he'd not only cheated on me, but that I'd now have to raise the Other Woman's child, I would...probably handle it even worse than Cat did.

[(Anonymous)]

The situation the books lay out is not that, though. They were almost strangers when they married, because she was supposed to marry his brother. His brother died and it became his duty to marry her. They consummated the marriage just before he left for war. There was no previous relationship for them to draw on, so I think a lot of people view her feelings of Jon as being almost entirely spite. I think there's a LOT more to it than that, but it's still a very difficult situation to compare to any modern ones.

[fauxkaren]

Yeah, there really is no modern comparison. Like Catelyn doesn't begrudge Jon his existence and at one point she says that she doesn't resent Ned for finding comfort in another woman while he was at war and that she'd expect Ned to provide for any child that resulted from that.

But what Catelyn can't abide is the fact that Ned brought Jon back to Winterfell with him. Bastards were not raised with the father and the trueborn children. They just weren't. Even Walder Frey, who has dozens of bastards and is clearly fond of them, houses his bastards in a separate castle on the other side of the river from where he and his trueborn children live. So the fact that Catelyn was just forced to accept this situation that really is disrespectful to her is where a lot of her bitterness stems from.

And then the other issue Catelyn has is the idea that Jon (or more accurately his children) might one day cause problems for her descendents and their inheritance.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, but

~~spoilers~~

that particular 'he could cause problems' mentality can't really be relied upon after the point where she believes her children have been killed. But this is again a fandom issue; people who watch the show/read the books continue thinking about their relationship up to points like that, where you wonder what she would think of Jon when she believes her own children are all dead, the two youngest babies supposedly killed by Theon Greyjoy, who was also raised alongside her kids. There's sure to be some really complicated and difficult emotions in her, thinking about Jon (who she probably equates with Theon rather than equating him with any of her own children), but at least as far as I've read she doesn't ever think about that stuff. So the fandom is left to speculate, usually to her discredit...

[fauxkaren]

Well that stuff does come up in ASOS when Robb wants to name Jon as his heir.

Catelyn objects and brings up the fact that Theon betrayed them as well as the fact that once Robb legitimizes Jon, he can't un-legitimize him and that could cause problems down the line. And Catelyn still believes that maybe Arya could be alive and that Robb and Jeyne could have a baby soon etc etc.

[(Anonymous)]

Ohh, that's right. I've read the first three books, so I wasn't sure about later on. But I love the little relationship details so I ought to have remembered that, because Jon is one of my secret favorites (secret because I usually prefer the more shattered and dysfunctional type of heroes and Jon is such a classic archetype)... but even if she believes Arya COULD be alive, it's so up in the air. She's grasping at straws there and she does seem to be aware of it. Now, Arya would be an AWESOME ruler of Winterfell, but Catelyn does treat her own faith in Arya as being sort of self-delusional. But it seems like she just doesn't really think about Jon unless someone else guides her to it, you know? So her discussions of him are reactions to others, and it's very difficult to get down to the real bedrock of her feelings. I mean, so much of her distressed reaction comes from defensiveness or pride or hurt feelings, so it's not necessarily the heart of the matter. But people still take tiny fragments of information and run with them, even though the books themselves are somewhat unclear about the basis of Catelyn's feelings.

[fauxkaren]

Yeah, I think that Catelyn's feelings are a lot more complicated than most people give her credit for.

Like, she does actually think about Jon when she meets Mya Stone. "Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once."

And then I believe that she thinks of Jon when she looks at the Warrior when she goes to pray in the sept after treating with Renly and Stannis.

But generally, yes, she doesn't think of Jon of her own volition.

[(Anonymous)]

Thing is, Cat has had a long time to be in the habit of being afraid of Jon as a threat to her own kids. IMO, that's probably been the easiest part of their messed-up situation for her to rationalise. And there're plenty of reasons for her to draw upon to stoke those fears. (Some of these you might find more convincing that onthers, ymmv)

*Bastards in Westeros have been Bad News in a number of high profile cases. Cat's own uncle fought against the Blackfyres (whose earlier rebellion had solidly fucked the kingdom).

*When Cat arrived in Winterfell to present Ned with his heir, and found another son already ensconced, could she ever be sure which son was actually the elder? Godric Borrell's version of events would put their conception very close together. And in DWD, Jon has a little moment where he observes how difficult it is to tell the age difference between Gilly's son and Mance Rayder's.

*In Westeros, kids die. After Robb, Catelyn had two daughters before finally having Bran to be 'the spare' (as it were). I wonder if her particular softness for Bran is part relief after worrying over Jon's place should anything happen to Robb.

*Ned (who won't explain what his plans for Jon or or make any move to build a life for him as anything other than one of the family) may not be able to legitimise Jon himself, but he's besties with the king, who can.

*From our point of view as readers, we might take time to note that Jon is offered Winterfell ahead of his surviving siblings twice. As it turns out, Jon is awesome. But Cat wasn't wrong about what could happen.

[(Anonymous)]

Arya would be an AWESOME ruler of Winterfell

What? No. Arya knows nothing of politics. She'd be a fucking terrible ruler.

[(Anonymous)]

I disagree entirely. She could learn politics, what she already has is strength, intelligence, determination, and the ability to form loyal bonds with other people. Those are all more important than a complex knowledge of how the political realm works, and things that aren't just learned. If she took power at Winterfell she would do an excellent job, she would learn whatever she needed to know about politics while retaining the inner qualities that make her such a wonderful character.

[(Anonymous)]

She's also like, nine years old. What 9-year old is that politically savvy? She's probably got a better idea of politics than a lot of children her age, given what she's seen them do to her family...

[(Anonymous)]

my thoughts exactly... she would prob be a better ruler than her brothers, who are (depending on which one we're talking) somewhat politically savvy but still very vulnerable and weak in their personal lives...

[(Anonymous)]

As I recall, Cat didn't resent the existence of Jon Snow, she resented the fact that Ned raised him alongside her own children. I don't blame her: it would be difficult for any woman to be reminded every day of her husband's infidelity. In the context of Westeros culture it's even insulting: Jon is nameless, has no status, yet Ned treats him just as he does his legitimate children and we have abundant evidence that in Westeros legitimacy is extremely important. In elevating Jon, Ned demeans his other children.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that Cat's situation was different from this more modern conception (as another commenter points out, it was not a marriage made from love at first, and they were practically strangers). However, the thing that makes me love Cat is that she actually *feels* for Jon, it's just complicated and messed up, because he's the living reminder of Ned's one moment of dishonor, and she's forced into this position of being insulted and having to just *take it* when he brings the bastard home. Not to mention her worries about her own children's inheritance, etc. It's not like she hates Jon himself; she acknowledges that the child shouldn't have to bear the weight of her frustrations. But human emotions are much more complex, and Jon is frankly pretty fortunate that Catelyn, despite her feelings, is still much more patient and tolerant than we could expect a lot of the women of Westeros to be in the same situatin.

[aubry]

The reason I love Cat and Jon's backstory so much, is because Catelyn isn't the evil stepmother some fans want to make her out to be. She's highly moral and very self-aware. But the specific situation with Jon is so fundamentally painful to everything that makes her the person she is that she is incapable of getting over it. There's no way for her to resolve it, or move past it.

So she does her best to minimise it. You can see from the text that all the rational decisions Cat makes are in Jon's best interests. But anytime they're actually thrown together, emotion comes into it and you can't hide from the perceptive eyes of a child. So it gets to Jon anyway.

Ned's the one I have most difficulty forgiving in the whole situation, tbh. I mean, he's not a big emotional communicator. And by the time he's sure enough of Catelyn to trust her (if R+L=J is true) there's already so much bad feeling surrounding Jon that perhaps he doesn't know how to go about it. But the honorable Eddard Stark is the one who fucked up on this, IMO.