[ SECRET POST #2293 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2293 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 105 secrets from Secret Submission Post #328.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

15. http://i.imgur.com/SxbCUWk.png

[(Anonymous)]

How different would things have really been, though? His issues with being a bastard didn't stem solely from her, it's the way the whole society treats him. He admired Benjen because of his choices and decided to take the black because of that. His early life would probably have been a good bit better if they'd had a less unpleasant relationship, but I don't see that making such a difference to his choices. He was attracted to the honor of the Knight's Watch and its willingness to recognize people of whatever background. But that wasn't directly related to Catelyn.

[(Anonymous)]

***SPOILERS***



Well one of the reasons why Robb decided to get married to Jeyne (in the books) was because he didn't want the stigma of having a bastard and part of me wonders if he would have felt as strongly as he did because of how Catelyn treated Eddard and Jon.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, that could have been part of it, but it may also have been honor instilled in him from Ned's insistence upon caring for his child, regardless of the manner in which Jon was conceived. You could just as easily say that it would have been better for the whole family if Ned had never recognized Jon, but then every one of the Starks would be totally different people. (I think Robb also had genuine feelings for Jeyne that colored his decisions, as opposed to the forced marriage he would have been facing with the Freys)

It's also not so clear to what extent Robb was aware of Jon's relationship with Catelyn. Clearly he knew they had serious problems with each other, but one of the most horrible moments we see between the two characters is the way Catelyn reacts to Jon coming to see Bran for the last time. But Jon protects Robb from knowing about that, and it's not clear whether that was a habitual thing for him. So there's no way to know if Robb was totally aware of how hostile the relationship really was.

[(Anonymous)]

When Ned originally leaves Winterfell in the first book, Catelyn outright states Jon has no place at Winterfell without Ned there, and if I'm honest I didn't notice a lot of surprise when she said that. I personally think that it was quite obvious, at the very least in the north, that Catelyn does not like Jon and doesn't want him there.

I don't think its too much of a stretch of the imagination to assume Jon knows that too, and would know he has no place in Winterfell without Ned and even less of a place in Kingslanding with his siblings.

[saturnofthemoon]

Oh god, I don't necessarily disagree with the OP but I'm so tired of Catelyn and Jon Snow secrets/rants. It's like it's the only facet of her character that fandom cares about.

[fauxkaren]

It's so annoying because it's really a somewhat minor part of BOTH their characters. But the way fandom fixates on it you'd think it was their defining trait.

[(Anonymous)]

To be fair, for show watchers that confession literally just happened, so I could see how it'd be on OP's mind.

But yeah from what I've seen fandom does spend more time on that subject then is needed.

[visp]

So much this. So very sick of the subject.

[(Anonymous)]

Same. And the show has to drag it on further with that stupid speech from the last ep. OH GOD, people hate Cat because she was mean to Jon. OH GOD, people can't handle flawed characters, must fix!

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, things would've been different. But I honestly don't blame her *at all* and don't get why other fans DO.

I mean, maybe I'm weird, but if my loving husband who I'd already built a family with showed up one day and revealed that he'd not only cheated on me, but that I'd now have to raise the Other Woman's child, I would...probably handle it even worse than Cat did.

[(Anonymous)]

The situation the books lay out is not that, though. They were almost strangers when they married, because she was supposed to marry his brother. His brother died and it became his duty to marry her. They consummated the marriage just before he left for war. There was no previous relationship for them to draw on, so I think a lot of people view her feelings of Jon as being almost entirely spite. I think there's a LOT more to it than that, but it's still a very difficult situation to compare to any modern ones.

[(Anonymous)]

As I recall, Cat didn't resent the existence of Jon Snow, she resented the fact that Ned raised him alongside her own children. I don't blame her: it would be difficult for any woman to be reminded every day of her husband's infidelity. In the context of Westeros culture it's even insulting: Jon is nameless, has no status, yet Ned treats him just as he does his legitimate children and we have abundant evidence that in Westeros legitimacy is extremely important. In elevating Jon, Ned demeans his other children.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that Cat's situation was different from this more modern conception (as another commenter points out, it was not a marriage made from love at first, and they were practically strangers). However, the thing that makes me love Cat is that she actually *feels* for Jon, it's just complicated and messed up, because he's the living reminder of Ned's one moment of dishonor, and she's forced into this position of being insulted and having to just *take it* when he brings the bastard home. Not to mention her worries about her own children's inheritance, etc. It's not like she hates Jon himself; she acknowledges that the child shouldn't have to bear the weight of her frustrations. But human emotions are much more complex, and Jon is frankly pretty fortunate that Catelyn, despite her feelings, is still much more patient and tolerant than we could expect a lot of the women of Westeros to be in the same situatin.

[amberleigh]

She did? I don't remember that. While it's not a facet of her personality I liked, I found Catelyn's resentment of Jon human and believable. And would it have changed so much if she'd been kind to him? If he hadn't gone to the wall, if he'd stayed at Winterfell or joined Robb's army, he'd probably be dead.

[fauxkaren]

Well I guess it's one way to read the monologue from episode 3x02.

But you could also read it as Catelyn feeling guilty because she made a promise to her gods (that she would love Jon if they allowed him to live but then she couldn't love him) and the gods are punishing her for not fulfilling her promise???

IDK.

That monologue was a mess and a half.

[childings.livejournal.com]

This monologue was so confusing because I just got done reading Storm of Swords and I don't remember her saying anything like that in any of the books so far. It seems out of character for her -- though I do realize that in the monologue in the tv show, she still came out of it resenting Jon Snow. I took it as more like "holy crap did I really want a child to die?"

[(Anonymous)]

"Finally admitted..."

I thought she was always aware of how wrong she was towards Jon. from the very beginning. I just think her resentment prevented her from feeling guilty about it.

[(Anonymous)]

Let's run with a AU thought-experiment for a minute. What would have been an ideal thing for Cat to have done with regard to Jon?

Are we imagining a scenario where she treats Jon as though he were one of her own children? Shouldn't she then encourage Ned to have him legitimised as next in line after Robb? Or how should she have dealt with the wider social issues of his being a known bastard?

Not leading questions - just wondering (because I've often wanted to talk about it before, but most Cat discussions involve the uber-Cat-haters getting so nasty and childish that it's impossible to get anywhere).

[littletown]

That scene was painful. Not gonna lie, I was wondering what the internet was gonna say after I saw it.

Her feelings towards Jon in the books is understandable. Not commendable at all, but I can see it. It was a terrible situation for both of them simply because Ned dun goof. He won't talk to Cat at all about why he took Jon in, and he wouldn't tell Jon about his own mother.

[rbhudson]

Agreed. I didn't like her at all at first, but now I find her complicated and interesting. I'd say more but spoilers.

[gabzillaz]

Where's the "If Catelyn had loved Jon" meme when I need it?

This scene was a mess.

[(Anonymous)]

The monologue was insufferable, but I guess you're the kind of person they wrote it for. It was so obviously inserted to pacify Jon stans and people who can't wrap their minds around a 40+ female character who has flaws and complex emotions beyond being the Perfect Maternal Figure.

***SPOILER***

Guess we must make sure Catelyn is immaculate before the Red Wedding or no one will care.

[(Anonymous)]

no hope for the young wolf tbh

[(Anonymous)]

LOL I feel like this is just to bait the Cat stans here.