Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2013-04-16 06:41 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2013-04-16 06:41 pm
[ SECRET POST #2296 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2296 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
__________________________________________________
02.
__________________________________________________
03.
__________________________________________________
04.
__________________________________________________
05.
__________________________________________________
06.
__________________________________________________
07.
__________________________________________________
08.
__________________________________________________
09.
__________________________________________________
10.
__________________________________________________
11.
__________________________________________________
12.
__________________________________________________
13.
__________________________________________________
14.
__________________________________________________
15.
__________________________________________________
16.
__________________________________________________
17.
__________________________________________________
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 056 secrets from Secret Submission Post #328.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: OP
(Anonymous) 2013-04-17 02:46 am (UTC)(link)I don't mind people not liking Bela/female characters if they don't have a double standard about it. The people I side eye are the ones like you who love the male characters for doing the same things the female characters they hate do.
OP
(Anonymous) 2013-04-17 03:58 am (UTC)(link)The role model thing is actually a slightly separate issue, I probably shouldn't even have brought it up. But if I saw people gushing about how Crowley is so admirable because he knows what he wants and lets nothing stand in his way, implying that they'd want to be like him or think he's some kind of good example, the way they frequently do with Bela, I'd be worried about them too. Maybe that's not you, Anon, but it's some fans. She gets a free pass for her horrible behavior just because she's a "strong female character," and, sorry, but no.
And no, I do not have a double standard. Crowley and Bela are both evil. Neither one is to be trusted or emulated. Crowley has done a lot of awful things, and I do not like him because of those things. I like him because he also had at least some rudimentary redeeming qualities and made some friendly gestures that Bela did not. They weren't enough to actually add up to redemption, more's the pity, but they were there.
He tried to better the lot of his fellow demons, threw Bobby's mobility into the soul deal just because he could, shared an interesting discovery with Cas not because it was particularly useful but just because he thought it was neat, proposed to Dean that they stop for pizza, and tried to make Cas feel better after he had his falling-out with the boys, then was hurt when Cas rebuffed him. And I maintain that he in fact did intend in the beginning for the Purgatory plan to work out for the best for all the principle characters, and it just fell all to pieces on him.
None of that makes him good, but the question isn't whether he's good, or even whether he was successful at being the lesser evil (overall, he sucked at it;) it's whether he's likeable. I submit that he is, moreso than Bela, because at least he occasionally tried.
Put it this way: Did Bela ever do anything with all that money to help other girls who'd been abused, let alone work so hard at it that the stress gave her an ulcer? Did she ever give away anything that didn't earn her an immediate payoff or further her aims of screwing someone over? Did she ever make any friendly gestures to the boys that didn't have some nasty ulterior motive? Did she ever say or do anything even the least bit genuinely nice or sympathetic, show any vulnerability whatsoever (at least before her very last scene,) or in any way attempt to not be a complete and utter asshole?
No, she did not; just the opposite, she consistently reveled in her badness, gloated at every opportunity, wanted no attachment or camaraderie or understanding with anyone else ever, had no friends by design, and was pretty much out to suck the world dry for her own amusement and profit. She gave absolutely nothing back in return, unless it got her out of some jam or out of owing a debt (or allowed her to case the joint.) There wasn't even a pretense of "live and let live" or quid pro quo with Bela. If she crossed your path, you were screwed. Even when she was about to be chewed apart by Hellhounds, she didn't call Dean to confess or apologize or share information in hopes of saving him, but to beg him to save her and maybe use him to get post-mortem revenge on Lilith.
And let me remind you that unlike Crowley, Bela? Did not have even the bad excuse of being a demon, though God knows she acted like one. Hell, Crowley sold his soul for foolish vanity where she bought a double homicide with hers. That alone puts them in two different classes of evil in my book.
tl;dr: They're different. And Crowley, though not a better person, is still a more likeable and sympathetic character, full stop.
Re: OP
(Anonymous) 2013-04-17 04:13 am (UTC)(link)But I would also just add that Crowley's been around for almost four seasons now. Bela got one - and a 16-episode one at that. She had far less time to develop the motivations and rationale, and redeeming qualities/characteristics, that you claim she didn't have. That is something to take into account.
And again I would just say that SPN has a track record with not WRITING good female characters. So the fact that you see Bela as one-dimensionally evil says as much about how she was written as about how she really just was.
I'm not denying Bela's flaws. And I don't really hate Crowley either. But I found Bela really interesting to watch. She wasn't a good person, but I liked her. To me, she did display vulnerability, and in the limited time we saw her, I bought her motivations.
And again, I wasn't in fandom back in S3 but it's my understanding that the fans' negative reaction to her was partly why she got so abruptly written off. And I'm still bitter about that - that characters like Crowley got four years to grow and be fleshed out, and she never got that chance.
OP again
(Anonymous) 2013-04-17 04:27 am (UTC)(link)I will also say this: Bela would make a superb demon, and I'd enjoy seeing her return in that capacity for an episode or two, if only because I love call-backs to past continuity. I admit I'm curious how she fared once she got Downstairs and whether she met any of the other Hellish personalities we've seen come and go.
Re: OP
But do we know that she didn't? All we got of Bela's character was snippets (6 episodes, I believe, of which she was barely a part of some of them?) and those were filtered through the lens of Dean's perception. We know what she said, but we don't know what she did. Like, for example, she let Dean believe she killed her parents because she is a cold-hearted bitch who wanted to get rich, whereas it was shown in the final episode that she killed them because her father was abusing her. Who is to say that there weren't other parts of her character we weren't privy to because she was mostly shown reacting to Dean?
Hell, Crowley sold his soul for foolish vanity where she bought a double homicide with hers. That alone puts them in two different classes of evil in my book.
This line really bothers me. Bela set up a deal to kill the father who was abusing her and the mother who (I would guess) condoned it. Also, she was 14 when she made that deal. Thus, she had no real understanding of the consequences of her actions. (I could go into the research of the undeveloped nature of teen's frontal lobes and the effect on their decision making processes, but I won't.) And you find this much more horrible than making a deal as an adult for vanity reasons?
And Crowley, though not a better person, is still a more likeable and sympathetic character, full stop.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. It seems we are looking at the characters from two different perspectives, I guess, and thus will never see eye to eye. I'm used to it.
OP again
(Anonymous) 2013-04-17 05:10 am (UTC)(link)And yeah, actually I'm pretty sure most 14-year-olds grasp the idea that killing someone is a Very Bad Thing even if they've done bad things to you. (I have in fact just consulted with my own 14-year-old daughter to confirm this.) She could have cut a deal to have them put in prison for life where they could never hurt her again, as one option. Now, if it were established in canon that young Bela didn't know that the plan was for both her parents to die, I'd say it was a slightly different matter. But all we got to see was the demon saying "I can take care of them for you." We'll probably never know the full story.
I'd have to say that arranging the murder of two people when other options were available to get out of a bad situation is a more awful thing to do than making a stupid personal choice and sinking just one's own boat, yes. This is not to be construed as sympathy or approval of the parents' actions. They fully deserved to be punished, and certainly needed to be gotten away from Bela and rendered harmless. I'm just against revenge killing without due process on general principle.
I think you're right, and thank you very much for for being civil about it. I wish I could debate stuff like this more often without it degenerating into ad hominem attacks and name-calling.
Re: OP again
Here is one article.
~ "This also may explain why teenagers often seem so maddeningly self-centered. "You think of them as these surly, rude, selfish people," Jensen says. "Well, actually, that's the developmental stage they're at. They aren't yet at that place where they're thinking about — or capable, necessarily, of thinking about the effects of their behavior on other people. That requires insight.""
Another
~ "MRI research has also revealed that during adolescence, white matter increases in the corpus callosum, the bundle of nerve fibers connecting the right and left hemispheres of the brain. This allows for enhanced communication between the hemispheres and enables a full array of analytic and creative strategies to be brought to bear in responding to the complex dilemmas that may arise in a young person’s life. Once again the role of experience is critical in developing the neural connectivity that allows for conscious cognitive control of the emotions and passions of adolescence."
Another
~ "In calm situations, teenagers can rationalize almost as well as adults. But stress can hijack what Ron Dahl, a pediatrician and child psychiatric researcher at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center calls "hot cognition" and decision-making. "
There are more, and those are more "populist" versus in-depth, scientific ones, but they have the science right. I'm not entirely excusing Bela's behavior, but she was in a stressful situation that her teenage self-centered self probably couldn't see a way out of and someone came up to her and gave her an out that her teenage impulsive self didn't think entirely through. I have a really hard time blaming her. Plus, there have been many abused people (wives as well as children) who have been allowed to cite self-defense reasons for killing their abusers. I don't see this as that much different.
But, again, agree to disagree. I just wanted to put that out there for a different perspective.
thank you very much for for being civil about it. I wish I could debate stuff like this more often without it degenerating into ad hominem attacks and name-calling.
Agreed on this part, at least. :)