[ SECRET POST #2296 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2296 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 056 secrets from Secret Submission Post #328.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

It's not okay to dislike them because they get in the way of your ship,

Why not? I've heard this sentiment a lot and I get it in the sense of "give the character a fair chance" but I feel, at the same time, this is borderline controlling and demanding, when TV series/books/etc are just meant to be fun for people. Why do people need a reason to dislike anyone? I could dislike a character for any number of stupid reasons. This isn't real life, it's all about the experience of enjoying something, and if a character doesn't entertain you, or gives you a sense of dread whenever s/he appears, so what? It might make you a shallow fan, and in fandom discussions a jerk, but the rhetoric of "not okay" sounds like a moral objection that I don't think has a place in anyone's personal enjoyment.

(and I say this loosely, because there are probably some reasons disliking so-and-so makes you kinda shitty, but I'm only talking the extremes that represent further issues - race, homophobia, sexism, etc - but not liking a character because they don't fit in your ship, while shallow, seems pretty normal.)

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT, but I'll put it this way then: not liking a character because they "get in the way of your ship" then makes you petty, shallow, and the very reason that the term "shipper" has such negative connotations in fandom. It's why shippers, and slashers in particular, get such a bad rap. It's where the stereotype that slashers just want to see pretty gay boyz and hate all the womenz that try to get in their way comes from.

It may not be morally WRONG, but it's fucking annoying.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you. It's not 'wrong', per se, certainly not on the same level as disliking people because of their sexuality or race, but it's also very very petty.

Someone once tried to defend the concept to me as 'hating the person your crush is dating, even if she's the sweetest person in the world'. Which...isn't all that laudable a position in itself.

[(Anonymous)]

But that's not comparable at all, imo. Hating the person your crush is dating, that affects a real person, real people are involved and that IS shallow. Hating a fictional character? This is totally different, and those feelings don't automatically translate into real life feelings for a similar situation.

[(Anonymous)]

You could also argue that holding any opinions about a fictional character is shallow. The debate here isn't about the degree to which real people are affected by your dislike.

It's about whether judging anyone - male, female, real, fictional - by who they're in a relationship instead of who they are is a shallow concept. I'm inclined to believe that it is.

[(Anonymous)]

What? I don't really understand. Certainly having opinions about fictional characters isn't inherently shallow, I'm not sure what you mean by saying that.

My point is that real or fictional IS the difference. We can't compare that kind of judgment because we're talking about apples and oranges. It makes all the difference in the world. Fictional characters aren't real people, they usually aren't fully developed and certainly lack the complexities of real people. If you're trying to say the concept of disliking somebody because they get in the way of the romance you want is shallow... well, sure, but it's a hard principle to compare precisely because these are incomparable situations. Real life is shallow because it negates the value of a real person and their feelings. Fictional... who cares. I get that characters can have value, too, and personalities that are discounted when "disliking" for this reason.

but my main point, sorry to ramble, is that in the case of fictional: who cares. we are not obliged to fictional characters.

[(Anonymous)]

When you're not liking someone getting in the way of your ship, it reeks of misogyny b/c it's usually women that the shippers want out of the way. And to get them out of the way, the writers/artists usually kill them or make them a raging bitch (aka character bashing) for the male to break up with so that he can go fuck whatever male the author wants. It's hating on female characters just for being female; if they were male, they'd likely be just fine even if the shipper wanted to pair the character they were involved with with someone else (another male).

No one's saying you can't dislike women characters for, well, reasons, but if your main/sole reason is b/c she's involved with your fave male who you want to pair up w/another male, then you need to take a long look at yourself and your reasons. Pretend she's a he and still involved w/your love interest. Still hate her? Or do you now like her? It's misogyny if the sex change changes your answer.

There is absolutely no reason for hating on a fictional character b/c of who they're fucking on the show (ymmv if it's cheating or something like that). They're fictional. Not real life. Your ship is not going to happen if it's homosexual. At all. Quit deluding yourself it will become canon. It won't.

Write what you want to write. Draw what you want to draw. Just please spare us the hate screeds on females who fuck your favorite character. You can't won't fuck them either ever since they don't actually exist. Also, quit making up reasons to hate them. It's not attractive at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Your latter point - namely, 'who cares' - is precisely why non-fandomers might find it shallow. 'These people don't exist, why waste so much of your life thinking about them?'

And once again, it's not about the degree of affect, it's about the cause. You might initially dislike a real person for all kinds of shallow reasons: they have an annoying laugh, they share a name with someone you hate, you have a knee-jerk distrust of their ethnicity...they're dating your crush. But if you're aware of why you're having a negative reaction to them, accept that it is a silly or shallow reason, and are willing to open your mind, you might find a friend.

A fictional character can similarly get on your bad side for irrational reasons. If you understand that, and are willing to explore who the character is, maybe you'll enjoy them.

Or maybe you won't. And yes, it doesn't matter if you never try. But it doesn't matter if you like any fictional characters. Because they're fictional. See beginning of argument.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

Yep, this is what people think and it's BS. People should be able to dislike a character for whatever shallow reasons they want as long as they aren't being offensive in their hatred.

Also, het shippers are crazy defensive of their OTPs too.

[(Anonymous)]

At least there, though, people tend to form impressions about the characters first, then pick ships. If Bob is the main character and Mary and Jane are his potential love interests, and someone ships Jane with Bob and hates Mary, it's at least possible that the hatred of Mary as a character came first, and that's why they're uninterested in shipping her.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT, but one problem is it often overlaps with sexism. This is especially true when you're talking about slash shippers hating anyone female because their precious bland white baby guy might possibly be interested in her. Also, these kinds of people seem to be more likely to hate a real person because their crush (either a celebrity or someone they know) does or might like them, which I find morally abhorrent. See the loathsome hate idiots spit at male celebrities' SOs.

If it's not a pattern of only hating the female characters, then it's still obnoxious and stupid, like hating a character because of their hair color. No one wants to hear you whine about it. Plus on here, people pull the, "I don't like black characters because they're not attractive but I have a black friend sooo it's totes not racist," thing. Sometimes being shallow is bad.

[(Anonymous)]

I understand, sort of, the alleged sexism of fans disliking female characters. But at the same time, these are female fans, right? I guess we could try to diagnose internalized sexism, but I wonder if that's readinga bit too far into it. (I'm not sure why you said "white" in reference to the slash ship, do you mean about race? That's a bit strange when most anime fandoms would have Japanese guys involved, but whatever - and bland? tell me more about your thoughts on yaoi. haha)

As far as real life goes, I'd give someone the benefit of the doubt and detach reactions to fictional characters from real life. I'd hope most people are intelligent and mature enough to be able to do that, and if they aren't, that's their own personal problem and not representative of the average fan. If they did hate someone real for such a reason, I don't think anyone would argue it IS morally wrong. But I don't think we're obliged to fictional characters in the same way. Fiction is entertainment. I don't see how hating a character for any shallow reason is "wrong" unless, as I said, there's some greater issue at hand. Again, I get bringing up the argument of sexism, but since these are female fans in question... I don't know. I don't see anything wrong with preferring to watch male characters, even imagining they are gay (whether it's true or otherwise). Again, it's just entertainment. But, again, if someone is unable to view reality and real people maturely, there is a problem, but it's theirs.