[ SECRET POST #2296 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2296 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 056 secrets from Secret Submission Post #328.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Bela and Ruby were bad characters. It's okay not to like them. It's not okay to dislike them because they get in the way of your ship, but it's okay to not like them for what they are, which is GMPCs. Seriously, it's not a roleplaying game, but they're textbook GMPCs. They show up out of nowhere and act mysterious and badass and are way more powerful than the heroes but also have dark myserious angsty cool pasts and they're always solving the heroes' problems and being super smart and awesome and clever and just the best. They're GMPCs, and that's why they suck.

I think the difference with Crowley is that the show doesn't expect you to see him as the coolest and most badassest character ever. He's just a guy who's a villain. He doesn't have to be the clever guy who wins and outsmarts everyone all the time. You know?

[(Anonymous)]

What the fuck is a GMPC? If you're going to use an obscure acronym, identify it.

[kues]

Game Master Player Character, I believe? Essentially the creator's godmode character.

[(Anonymous)]

Game Master Player Character.

When you're in a roleplaying game, and a shitty gamemaster has an NPC (non-player character - controlled by the game master and not a member of the party) join up with your party, and all of a sudden the story revolves around them, and it turns out they're way more powerful than you, and oh hey look they just killed the dragon, and the king is their long-lost brother, and they're constantly showing off how cool they are and how much stuff they know, and before you know it, you're in the GMPC's story.

[(Anonymous)]

That basically sums up every character on the show that was not Sam or Dean.

[(Anonymous)]

I would argue that at the very least Bobby and the hunters from the bar in the second season are not like that at all. On the most basic level, because Sam and Dean usually go to them for help, aid, or whatever, rather than having them jump into Sam and Dean's life and kill shit and solve insoluble problems and drop cryptic hints at secrets.

[kaijinscendre]

I googled it. It could mean Gnome Music Player Client, Game Master Playing Character, Graham Memorial Presbyterian Church, ummm.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the difference with Crowley is that the show doesn't expect you to see him as the coolest and most badassest character ever. He's just a guy who's a villain. He doesn't have to be the clever guy who wins and outsmarts everyone all the time.

That is not the impression I have gotten. If it was the impression I'd gotten, I'd probably mind him less.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah I've always been under the impression that you're supposed to find him to be uber badass too.

[(Anonymous)]

re: Crowley... well, certainly not *lately*

OP

[(Anonymous)]

No, *lately* he's been way too much like Bela!

[lunabee34]

Huh. I think Crowley fits the GMPC model (if I'm understanding it correctly from what other people have said in the thread) much better than Bela and Ruby do. I like all three characters regardless. Bela is one of my favorite characters in the show period.

[(Anonymous)]

High five, fellow Bela fan. <3

[lunabee34]

Back at ya!!

[tabaqui]

This. Add in making the main characters look/do really stupid things so they can pull off the omg!cool! things.

Meh.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not okay to dislike them because they get in the way of your ship,

Why not? I've heard this sentiment a lot and I get it in the sense of "give the character a fair chance" but I feel, at the same time, this is borderline controlling and demanding, when TV series/books/etc are just meant to be fun for people. Why do people need a reason to dislike anyone? I could dislike a character for any number of stupid reasons. This isn't real life, it's all about the experience of enjoying something, and if a character doesn't entertain you, or gives you a sense of dread whenever s/he appears, so what? It might make you a shallow fan, and in fandom discussions a jerk, but the rhetoric of "not okay" sounds like a moral objection that I don't think has a place in anyone's personal enjoyment.

(and I say this loosely, because there are probably some reasons disliking so-and-so makes you kinda shitty, but I'm only talking the extremes that represent further issues - race, homophobia, sexism, etc - but not liking a character because they don't fit in your ship, while shallow, seems pretty normal.)

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT, but I'll put it this way then: not liking a character because they "get in the way of your ship" then makes you petty, shallow, and the very reason that the term "shipper" has such negative connotations in fandom. It's why shippers, and slashers in particular, get such a bad rap. It's where the stereotype that slashers just want to see pretty gay boyz and hate all the womenz that try to get in their way comes from.

It may not be morally WRONG, but it's fucking annoying.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you. It's not 'wrong', per se, certainly not on the same level as disliking people because of their sexuality or race, but it's also very very petty.

Someone once tried to defend the concept to me as 'hating the person your crush is dating, even if she's the sweetest person in the world'. Which...isn't all that laudable a position in itself.

[(Anonymous)]

But that's not comparable at all, imo. Hating the person your crush is dating, that affects a real person, real people are involved and that IS shallow. Hating a fictional character? This is totally different, and those feelings don't automatically translate into real life feelings for a similar situation.

[(Anonymous)]

You could also argue that holding any opinions about a fictional character is shallow. The debate here isn't about the degree to which real people are affected by your dislike.

It's about whether judging anyone - male, female, real, fictional - by who they're in a relationship instead of who they are is a shallow concept. I'm inclined to believe that it is.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

Yep, this is what people think and it's BS. People should be able to dislike a character for whatever shallow reasons they want as long as they aren't being offensive in their hatred.

Also, het shippers are crazy defensive of their OTPs too.

[(Anonymous)]

At least there, though, people tend to form impressions about the characters first, then pick ships. If Bob is the main character and Mary and Jane are his potential love interests, and someone ships Jane with Bob and hates Mary, it's at least possible that the hatred of Mary as a character came first, and that's why they're uninterested in shipping her.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT, but one problem is it often overlaps with sexism. This is especially true when you're talking about slash shippers hating anyone female because their precious bland white baby guy might possibly be interested in her. Also, these kinds of people seem to be more likely to hate a real person because their crush (either a celebrity or someone they know) does or might like them, which I find morally abhorrent. See the loathsome hate idiots spit at male celebrities' SOs.

If it's not a pattern of only hating the female characters, then it's still obnoxious and stupid, like hating a character because of their hair color. No one wants to hear you whine about it. Plus on here, people pull the, "I don't like black characters because they're not attractive but I have a black friend sooo it's totes not racist," thing. Sometimes being shallow is bad.

[(Anonymous)]

I understand, sort of, the alleged sexism of fans disliking female characters. But at the same time, these are female fans, right? I guess we could try to diagnose internalized sexism, but I wonder if that's readinga bit too far into it. (I'm not sure why you said "white" in reference to the slash ship, do you mean about race? That's a bit strange when most anime fandoms would have Japanese guys involved, but whatever - and bland? tell me more about your thoughts on yaoi. haha)

As far as real life goes, I'd give someone the benefit of the doubt and detach reactions to fictional characters from real life. I'd hope most people are intelligent and mature enough to be able to do that, and if they aren't, that's their own personal problem and not representative of the average fan. If they did hate someone real for such a reason, I don't think anyone would argue it IS morally wrong. But I don't think we're obliged to fictional characters in the same way. Fiction is entertainment. I don't see how hating a character for any shallow reason is "wrong" unless, as I said, there's some greater issue at hand. Again, I get bringing up the argument of sexism, but since these are female fans in question... I don't know. I don't see anything wrong with preferring to watch male characters, even imagining they are gay (whether it's true or otherwise). Again, it's just entertainment. But, again, if someone is unable to view reality and real people maturely, there is a problem, but it's theirs.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not going to go into Ruby, but Bela? 'solving the heroes' problems'? How?

-Black Rock wouldn't have been a problem if not for her.

-Red Sky, they could have handled the theft without her involvement (and not had the hand stolen afterward), and then Sam pulls her ass out of the fire by coming up with a different solution.

-Dream a Little Dream, she only gives them a sample of the root so she can steal the colt while they're not paying attention.

She's a peripheral antagonist who sometimes helps the good guys if there's something in it for her. The show never pretended anything else.

She was a badass, and pulled the rug out from under the boys a few times. They returned the favor just as many times. Tally up the score and I doubt she came out ahead, particularly given the whole 'eternal torture in hell' thing.

Apart from a couple of throwaway lines, she didn't get her angsty backstory until her last episode; the main characters never even knew about said backstory, so it's also not like they're sobbing and building shrines to her misunderstood memory.