[ SECRET POST #2329 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2329 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 083 secrets from Secret Submission Post #333.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[seventh_seal]

Yeah, Snape has no manor, people. The Princes probably disinherited his mom and he comes from a working class background. That's why he tries so hard with his speech.

His father was abusive and Spinner's End must hold some gloomy memories - and its surrounded by filthy muggles. And yet, Snape keeps it and comes there every summer. God, I love fucked-up Snape. Not refined super-powerful charming gentleman Snape.

EDIT: And looking at the picture, I also have to add that I hate Rickman!Snape. Sorry for making your secret all about me, OP, but I'm with you on Spinner's End.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh my god, I really dislike Rickman!Snape as well, and everyone seems to think this is blasphemy. He doesn't even LOOK like Snape is supposed to, but now it's changing the way people perceive the book character. A lot of fans are actually surprised when I bring up quotes from the book where he's described as looking like a spider or a dying plant, where he's got yellowing and crooked teeth, where he's constantly hunched over rather than like tall and majestic... oi.

[seventh_seal]

Exactly. Alan Rickman may be a good actor but he really doesn't physically match the description of Snape in the books and in my opinion he is too stiff and still and contained ... Of course, the other actors are also way old, etc., I just wish people stopped projecting movie canon over book canon because it does. not. fit.

Snape in the books is this skinny ugly guy in his thirties. I perceive him as way more energetic and angry. He's bitter and hateful and sometimes irrational and yet he finds it in himself to do these incredibly brave things for people who despise him. I love this Snape so much.

[(Anonymous)]

+1 to this!

Late comment is late, but my main complaint about Rickman Snape is that he's too composed. Book Snape is one angry motherfucker; it's like he's full of barely-contained (or not contained at all in PoA) rage and bitterness ALL THE TIME. Also, I miss his gift for figuring out the kind of personal insults that will sting an individual the most, and then actually using it, lol. Movie Snape is like, secretly noble slightly sarcastic teacher, and it's boring as hell.

[philstar22]

I can understand not liking Rickman!Snape because he really isn't book!Snape. For me personally, I prefer him because his Snape is toned down enough that I can actually find him sympathetic. He's still messed up, but some of the most distasteful aspects of Snape aren't there or at least aren't quite as obvious. But for those who do like book!Snape, it makes sense that they may not like movie!Snape.

[seventh_seal]

Sure, everyone sees it differently and I think a lot of book fans are satisfied with Rickman because he fits their interpretation of book Snape. I just don't see it that way. I don't enjoy the movies very much, period ;)

About Snape being sympathetic - they really did try to make him into a misunderstood hero in DH part 2, didn't they. But to me, it's the "distasteful" parts that I also like about him. He is a jerk, but he also does some admirable things and that makes him a complex, ambiguous, intriguing character.

[philstar22]

Book!Snape reminds me too much of some teachers I had as a child, so he brings up things that make it impossible for me to like his character. I can see that he is a well written and complex character, I just can't like him. For me, the movie is easier to handle because we only see his nastiness towards Harry and not towards Neville and Hermione.

[seventh_seal]

Sorry to hear about your teachers, I had some bad ones as well, but they never focused on me, so I got away easy.

Yeah, Snape is terrible to Neville and Hermione. There are definitely some drawbacks to Dumbledore's habit of employing people for the sake of keeping them close and loyal rather than because of them being competent teachers.

[philstar22]

Seriously. Snape was good at potions, but he sucked as a teacher. Maybe he could have done something like make potions for Madam Pomphrey or something. Dumbledore really didn't think things through in terms of who he hired.

[seventh_seal]

Wait, I don't think The Half Blood Prince would suffer being reduced to an assistant to a nurse, though. So instead, he is condemned to a life of perpetual frustration when he realizes his classroom is full of kids every morning.

You know, JKR skirted the line between caricature and sort-of-realism well until the later books, but when you take Hogwarts seriously, it turns out to be a pretty horrifying place ;)

OP here

[(Anonymous)]

It's okay, I pretty much agree with everything you said !
(I wouldn't go as far as saying that I hate Rickman!Snape but I wasn't fond of him either.)

[lex_antonia]

I agree with every word of this!

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry, I can't take your Rickman!Snape disdain seriously if you think Snape "tries so hard" with his speech and thinks, by the Trio's era, that muggles are "filthy." Oh, wait. I keep forgetting, people aren't allowed to grow after being offensive. Once repulsive, always repulsive, amirite?

[seventh_seal]

You have a different interpretation of Snape than me. You are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine. I assume he is also your favorite HP character, but I honestly have no desire to get into a conversation about Snape's growth with an aggressive anon.

[(Anonymous)]

There isn't really any evidence that he changed his views on that though. When he got pissed at Phineas Nigellus for calling Hermione a "mudblood", you could easily interpret that as simply him disliking the word that was the last straw in his friendship with Lily. Otherwise we don't get anything on his change of views.

He did grow in the sense that he saw value in human life, even if he didn't particularly like them. In PoA he was going to happily condemn Remus to a fate worse than death based on his own assumptions--and no evidence--that Remus had helped out Sirius get into the castle, but in DH we find out he did try to save Remus' life in the 7 Potter sequence. So... there's that.

[seventh_seal]

Well, I'm not sure about the value of human life thing.

In PoA Snape still thought Sirius was the traitor who sold out Lily. In the Shack scene, he was clearly in no rational state of mind and he really believed Lupin was a traitor, too. So naturally, he thought they deserved the kiss.

In DH, on the other hand, he tried to save Lupin because he now knew he was on the same side. So it's not really a change in moral thinking but in the amount of information Snape has (I think Snape did grow morally, but not so much between book 3 and 7).

The Burbage episodes (and possibly the unexplained Emmeline Vance episode) shows that Snape was OK with sacrificing a human life for the greater good (him remaining a double agent)- like Dumbledore and unlike Harry.

[(Anonymous)]

There's a big difference between being "OK with sacrificing a human life for the greater good" and recognizing it as a necessity.

[seventh_seal]

No, there isn't. Snape doesn't know the end result but he believes in Dumbledore's "greater good" plan and is "OK with" regarding sacrificing people to it "as a necessity." It's not really a "needs of the many" type of decision because the needs of the many are not fulfilled until much later in the story and it's impossible for Snape to predict whether all the "necessities" will ever by worth it. The "end justifies the means" approach is never a necessity, but it's the one Snape and Dumbledore choose.

The fact that JKR constructs the plot in a way that allows Harry to never "be OK" with sacrificing random people and for his foolish bravado to nonetheless still work in favor of the greater good is another thing.

[(Anonymous)]

Perhaps we have different definitions of "OK with." Because I see "OK with" as "has no problem with; letting people die is just fine and dandy because look what we'll probably get out of it!"

It conjures up an image of "I enthusiastically approve!" to which, again, I think is wildly different from "I hate this, but it's the only way (that I can see) to help the greater good."

Whether or not the ends actually or ever justify the means is irrelevant. Clearly, they thought they did (or would, because you're right they can't predict the future), and maybe that's a position you disagree with, and that's OK. But it doesn't mean the decisions they made didn't weigh on them.*

*Yes, I realize speaking about them as if they are real can sound kind of crazy, but it's the easiest way to talk about it, and part of the beauty of fiction is it's ability to exploration of deeper discussions more accessible.

[seventh_seal]

Yes, you're right, the stupid "be OK with" phrase was misused on my part. I used it as "accept as necessity" rather than "enthusiastically approve," which is why I didn't really see the distinction that you mentioned.

I do think that the extent to which the decisions in favor of the greater good weighed on Snape is still subject to speculation.

[(Anonymous)]

That's fair. Such is the fun of varying interpretations and our own personal coffee filters of experience and thoughts.

[perverse_idyll]

Sorry to barge into a comm I'm not a member of - and late to the party at that! - but a friend of mine pointed me to this thread because she knew I'd find the Snape-talk interesting.

I do think that the extent to which the decisions in favor of the greater good weighed on Snape is still subject to speculation.

I love fic that pokes at all the possibilities on the moral spectrum, especially during Snape's last year, but in The Prince's Tale, when Dumbledore says (rather slightingly), "How many men and women have you watched die, Severus?" I think JKR means us to catch the change of heart implied by the response, "Lately, only those whom I could not save."

Open to interpretation, of course, but I think it's evidence that Snape would have prevented those deaths if he could. The whole point of his remark is to admit the contrast between his prior attitude and how he feels now. It doesn't soften his personality or absolve him in any way, but in that moment he wrong-foots Dumbledore, who's just made these deaths sound like part of a game. Snape may still be petty and angry, driven by revenge and remorse, but he's no longer so self-centered about it. After so much loss and struggle - perhaps especially after watching Charity Burgage die - he's learned to value human life. It just took him 37 years to get there. And he dies before we find out whether that change of heart would have lasted.

[(Anonymous)]

Welcome! And I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Something else that I think is worth noting is that in Deathly Hallows, where torture has become the punishment du jour from the Carrows, what's Snape doing? Sending kids into the forest with Hagrid. Some kid I don't remember commented on the joke being on Snape with that one, because HAGRID, but I have a feeling Snape knew exactly what he was doing.

[seventh_seal]

Hi and thanks for the quote - it does reflect a change of heart. In the exchange, Snape also comes across as morally better than Dumbledore who argues that watching people die is what they do in this job and Snape rejects it with But of course we try to save them first. Saving innocents also seems to have been Snape's personal initiative rather than something Dumbledore told him to do, which is nice to see. It's a pity that they don't pursue this further. The length of the period "lately" refers to is unknown and tantalizing to consider.

Instead, Snape reverts to the "All for Lily" argument but just the fact that he's eventually willing to go along with the plan of sacrificing Harry proves that he's gotten to a point where he acknowledges the existence of other human beings whom this might help. (It also shows that Snape really bought into Dumbledore's plan and that he's perfectly willing to follow him to the point of giving up his original "meaning of life" of protecting Harry. Snape lays all his damaged cards on the table with Dumbledore.)

So yes, Snape did change his outlook on "watching people die"- but as you suggested, it probably wasn't until the last year of his life and I also think it must've been after the Burbage episode.

About that - I believe that the fact that in his opening scene, Snape watches Charity killed by Nagini and in his closing scene, he is killed by Nagini is no coincidence. It's JKR being ironic and also punishing* Snape for taking the reasonable spy approach in the situation rather than pulling "a Harry" and trying to help Charity. So not much charity on Snape's part yet at that point, which didn't bode well for him.

*I don't mean "punish" in the sense that I think JKR hates Snape. I think she loves Snape, why else would she write him as the best character in the books? What I mean is that it makes sense for Snape to die at then end, especially in the context of a kids' book - his hands are just too dirty. Although it does elevate him into a misunderstood martyr status in the eyes of some people, which does the character a disservice imho.

[(Anonymous)]

Always