fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2381 ]

[ SECRET POST #2381 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2381 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Horrible Histories]

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03.

[Galileo, Strawberry Night]

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04.

[Star Trek]

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05.

[Sphere]

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06.

[Malcom Tucker (played by Peter Capaldi) in The Thick of It]

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07.

[Coupling]

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08.

[ROM Spaceknight]

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09.

[Avengers]

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10.

[My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic]

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11.

[Lizzie Bennet Diaries]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 023 secrets from Secret Submission Post #340.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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OP says: "sex, trans sex, intersex"

I say: "and genderqueer, agender, neutrois among many many others? It's okay if those are ignored or shoehorned into your tri-point only POV?"

This is like OP saying there's only homo, hetero, and bisexual and nothing else exists, because it annoys OP that they do.

This is like OP saying there's only homo, hetero, and bisexual and nothing else exists

In a completely literal sense, this is entirely true.
Homo=the same as
Hetero=different from

Other people either have the same gender as you, or a different gender from you. It doesn't matter how many different gender demarcations you use; someone either matches yours or they don't.

Bisexual means 'both heterosexual and homosexual'. (A lot of people wrongly believe it means 'interested in both men and women'). I'm bisexual, and I'm a cisgender woman. If I'm interested in another woman, that's a homosexual interest. If I'm interested in someone who isn't a woman - whether they're a man or they're genderqueer or they're agender - that's a heterosexual interest, strictly speaking.

The real failure of terminology lies with all the people who identify as heterosexual but really aren't - rather than having a preference for gender difference, they're mostly into one specific gender.

So OP is saying all agender people are trans. You are saying everything about that statement is right. Am I reading correctly?

No? I never said anything about OP's opinion of agender. You must be reading something that I didn't write. I think you need your eyes checked.

Edited 2013-07-11 00:43 (UTC)

You said there was nothing wrong with what OP wrote when they divided everyone into cis, inter, and trans, assuming sex and gender are the same as used in colloquial speech. To which I pointed out agender people exist that don't fit into any category, meaning more categories that those must necessarily exist. You replied with a semantic argument in which you said "hetero" should mean "different," and I replied that using literal meanings, "trans" means "beyond, across, or outside of" which would mean agender people fall under the "trans" umbrella. Which I don't feel is correct. Did I miss something? Honest question.

I disputed the obviously incorrect assessment of their views: "so you're someone who refuses to acknowledge the difference between gender and sex then im done bye" That was the full text of the comment I replied to, and I replied to it because it was obviously wrong.

I'm not agender so I've no response to your queries about how they should identify.

Oh. I see. How do you feel about OP's original comment and their 3 point system instead of the standard 2 point binary, then?

AHAHAHAHA "2 point binary"

anyway

how do I feel about it? Not sure why you're asking. But, we've established OP was a layman who is frustrated with the plethora of terminology. They, very confusingly, grouped intersex with trans which I'm pretty sure indicates that they don't know what intersex means, and are mistakenly assuming it means what's usually called genderqueer. (I think this is the case because they're using it as a third category next to trans). If I'm right, all they said was that they recognise that some people are trans and some people are neither binary-trans nor cis, but they don't care about the plethora of identifiers used. (They also reified cisgender by saying 'a sex' to mean 'cis' by default; almost everyone outside of a few tiny corners of the internet does that.)

So tl;dr a person who expressed a dislike of gender terminology proliferation came in and said some gender terminology wrong, and someone else responded by making obviously incorrect assumptions about their intent.

I've said before that this kind of language policing is entirely about establishing shibboleths. That is one of the things I hate most about this kind of pigeonholing; it's often doesn't stop at navel-gazing, it turns into this cultural war where if you don't know the right, latest, hot-off-tumblr words you get told to leave the treehouse.

I didn't "group intersex with trans," I made a list. And intersex happened to come after trans in it.

That's...seriously inexplicable. Most intersex people are cisgender, so IDGI.

I...don't get what's so inexplicable, and I'm beginning to wonder if YOU know what intersex is? Because, intersex is literally, having bits of both sex. I'm not trying to somehow magically relate it to trans. They're separate things. I could have just as easily made a list that went "intersex, sex, trans" and the point would have been the same.

No, that's not what intersex is. Intersex means having any congenital condition (there are several) that leads you to be born with an ambiguous physical sex, most commonly ambiguous genitals. (Other varieties include chromosome disorders (Klinefelter's syndrome), androgen insensitivity syndrome in girls, undescended testicles in boys, etc). Ambiguous genitals are often 'corrected' at birth, so a lot of people don't even know they were intersex and are now physically indistinguishable from everyone else. Being intersex may or may not affect someone's gender identity, but most intersex people are cisgender, just like everyone else.

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 03:38 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 03:46 (UTC) - Expand

It isn't about the particular terms so much as the broad classifications implying a refusal to acknowledge that other categories exist at all; see below for an example of someone who thinks the same.

SA

And for the life of me I can't see why you think the "standard 2 point binary" I mentioned is funny. Isn't that the layman's idea of gender and sex? Male and female and nothing in between? The word standard in there was important.

I ask because I'm curious and you have opinions on the matter.

It's funny because it's just as socially constructed as everything else and therefore there's nothing 'standard' about it. The limits of each box vary from time to time and place to place (see, who is and is not regarded as a Real Man or Real Woman), as do the positions of other such boxes (see above about white people identifying as "two-spirit".)

I feel like you're trying to force an argument between two different completely false extremes; option a), ignore all (or most) gender minorities, or option b), faithfully learn and respect every gender minority identifier used on planet earth and regard each of them as a separate static state of being. Whereas out in the real world, identity is subject to constant fluidity and the best you can ever do is try to understand what people mean at the time at which they say it. There's a great Dworkin line about moving on 'from the conservative biology of gender difference to the radical biology of gender similarity', or something like that. Words used to draw lines (including 'male' and 'female') are way less important than occupying the same consensual space, respecting each other, and taking change well when it comes.

I didn't say it wasn't a social construct, so I'm afraid I've lost the flow of the conversation here. All I have to offer is that as-is, in present day, within the frame of "the entire world," the vast majority of human beings will see the male-female binary as standard. I don't think I'm wrong about that.

And please do not strawman me, which you are doing! Nowhere did I say that every gender identity has have its own special category and that everyone must know every term. The question I raised was where agender people fit into this three-part organization system of OP's. If OP must categorize, which they actively did on their own, then their system can have its flaws, one of which I was pointing out! And nobody so far has given me an answer to that question; I would consider "agender people do not exist for realsies" as a rationale for that system, but have not even been given that.

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 03:55 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 04:02 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 09:03 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

thene - 2013-07-11 04:01 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 04:10 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 04:13 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

thene - 2013-07-11 04:16 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 04:26 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 05:01 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 06:20 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 07:28 (UTC) - Expand

DA
I don't think "agender" equals trans, and I don't think OP does either, but I can't speak for them. But personally, I think "agender" equals dumbshittery.

That's cool? Why did you feel the need to express that opinion?

I'm not agender, FTR. I'm questioning OP's 3-point system, which is not all too different from the standard binary, other than that it has 3 points instead of two. One extra point makes theirs acceptable?

Boy, Girl, Trans Boy, Trans Girl, Intersex.

What exactly else do you want to add? Because LIKE IT OR NOT this is something EVERYONE HAS.

So if someone would prefer to have no sex markers whatsoever and be devoid of gender, are they Trans?

What a person might "prefer" and what is reality are two entirely separate things. I person can "prefer" to have no sex marker, but that doesn't mean they don't have one.

I apologize; it was poor wording on my part.

They feel uncomfortable identifying as either gender and/or identify as neither.

They can be uncomfortable identifying as human, and would rather identify as a winged wolf unicorn snake, but that doesn't mean it's true.

They have a sex. Their DNA is either male or female. This is a FACT. You can't magic it away with PC bullshit. You are either male or female. That is how reality works.

Male or female? What of intersex people? What of trans people? You mentioned they exist.

Those are rhetorical questions, by the way. You are contradicting yourself a lot in this thread.

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 04:59 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Re: Gender/Sexuality spectrums

(Anonymous) - 2013-07-11 06:21 (UTC) - Expand

That's...not what intersex means. Intersex is a cluster of congenital conditions. Intersex people might be either cisgender or transgender as regards their assigned sex. They may have had corrective surgery, or may not. Intersex is a very broad group of condtions and therefore also a broad group of people, and using it as a social category rather than simply the name of a medical condition doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

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