fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #269 ]

I'm just saying.

It IS canon, and I don't see how they could possibly make it any more canon than it already is. Honestly, there really ISN'T much room for interpretation there.

You keep saying that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

The games never say anything about how they were raised or even if they spent their childhoods on the same continent. We know Manfred raised them both, but we don't know what country(s) he did it in, how long it took Franziska to learn English (which she still doesn't speak perfectly), how long it took Miles to learn German, or if he ever learned German. Like many back-stories in Ace Attorney, there is a whole lot of room for interpretation. I'm not knocking the sibling interpretation, I'm saying it's just that: an interpretation. I don't see why this is something to get up in arms over. ;)

You're right, we don't know that. Honestly, though? It doesn't matter.

We know that for the most recent six years (from the "present" of the game), Franziska and Miles were apart, practicing law in Germany and America respectively. That was since they were 13 and 20.

Correct, we don't know how LONG they were raised together or anything ABOUT their childhood, that is COMPLETELY up to interpretation. But the fact that they WERE raised together is not. Regardless of how long they were together... Miles is the ONE person Franziska allows to see her vulnerable side. Franziska, too, knows Miles' deepest fears and secrets--despite their meeting in 2-4, they hadn't seen each other in six years. Yet the INSTANT the earthquake hits in 3-5, her first thought is Miles.

The DETAILS of their childhood and upbringing are certainly up for interpretation. The fact that they consequently see each other as siblings, though? Is not.

So, just for clarity's sake, and because it's Phoenix Wright, what exactly is your here?

-The fact that they spent somewhere between 6 months to four years together when they were young.
-The fact that on three occasions over two games, Franziska refers to him as "little brother." (But, mind you, never to his face).
-That they are very, very close.

Am I missing anything?

-Not sure quite where you're getting these numbers from. It's entirely possible for them to have lived together for up to 11 years before Franziska went to Germany/Miles+Manfred went to America to practice law (since we don't know where they were raised).

But yes, that's a part of it. Miles was a part of Franziska's life since she was TWO. I can't remember back to being two. They were raised together.

-Franziska does call him her brother, yes. I don't quite see why the fact that she never does it to his face is relevant; I don't call my own brother, "Brother," when I talk to him.

-It's more than just that they're close. Yes, they're close, tremendously so. Franziska knows about Edgeworth's fear of earthquakes, and immediately remembers it in 3-5 despite not having seen him for six years before 2-4. This is not something he openly shares with people. Edgeworth, in turn, is the only person to whom Franziska dares to show her more vulnerable self. Franziska is also one of the few people whom Edgeworth addresses by their first name.

But it's more than just being close. It's that the dynamic and trust between them is very familial in nature; the way they talk to one another. One of Franziska's primary motivations in coming to America was to find Miles, whom she thought had fallen from the true path and shamed himself, and set him back on track.

Their relationship is... uniquely them. It's no question that they care about each other tremendously, but they're never coddling. When Franziska says that she's going to quit being a prosecutor, she's a failure, Edgeworth isn't all "oh, I'll help you work through it, we can do it together." He outright says that if she doesn't pick herself up, find her own road--not the road of her father--and follow it? He'll continue on and leave her behind. However, he says that because he has faith in her ability to master herself and improve on her own.

Similarly, after Edgeworth is being all emo after the earthquake in 3-5, Franziska doesn't coddle him. She tells him to go outside and get over it, they need him to be sharp. Again, she has faith in his ability to master himself and overcome his own obstacles.

Some might call that "tough love." If viewed in a romantic context, honestly it becomes incredibly creepy and verges on emotional blackmail (particularly the airport scene). Which is why it screams familial context to me, given that there's such tremendous love--but restrained, tempered with respect and faith that the other can do it on their own without their help.

Again, it's more than just them being 'close,' it's HOW they interact. And that's what hammers "SIBLINGS! SIBLINGS! SIBLINGS!" into my head. Quite honestly... I can truthfully not see any other interpretation. Parts of their relationship ARE up for interpretation, and certainly their past is as well. But I don't believe for an instant that they're anything but siblings in canon.

Your main points here seem to be "the facts don't matter, it's how they act." And based on interpreting how they act, you are claiming something to be canon. It doesn't work that way. The end. Just because you can't see it any other way doesn't make it canon.

Excuse me? The facts DO matter.

YOU'RE the one grasping at straws, here. The FACT is that Franziska outright and explicitly defines them as family. YOU are the one reaching and saying "But it could have ANOTHER meaning!!!" Yeah, and when Edgeworth calls Phoenix 'partner' in the third game, he could be actually referring to him as his sexual partner because they had lots of buttsex in the hospital.

-They were raised together (for long enough a period of time to forge this incredibly close bond that persists despite not seeing each other for six years after they actually started prosecuting).

-They are extremely close and behave in a way that really only makes sense from a familial viewpoint.

-THEY ARE EXPLICITLY DEFINED AS SIBLINGS WITHIN THE GAME ITSELF.

Jesus CHRIST. What more do you want?! Stop grasping at straws.

There are MANY things in this game that are completely up for interpretation, particularly when it comes to the bonds between characters. Hell, a lot of the specifics of the Franziska/Miles bond can be left to interpretation as well--does Franziska resent him? Did they support each other during the cruel tutelage of Manfred von Karma? Etc.--but this is NOT one of them. The game EXPLICITLY defines them as siblings. You're reaching and grasping at straws, here.

Oh, for the love...

I was going to drop it because clearly, You Are Right In All Things, but tell me, when exactly does the game EXPLICITLY-IN-ALL-CAPS state that they are siblings? Because frankly, I don't remember it. She calls him 'little brother' to his back a couple of times, we've established that. You say we're the ones grasping at straws, but you've yet to define any solid evidence that your point of view is canon, just a bunch of behavior.

And if it is canon, why is it that some fans seem to have "missed" it? Are these people simply stupid? Or could it be that you're reading in between the lines? Just because you're a BNF doesn't mean you know the canon better than everyone else who's played the game.

Uh, I wouldn't call myself a BNF by any stretch of the term, you may have me confused with somebody else.

I admit to being confused as to WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?! They act like siblings--fine, this could be up to interpretation. They were raised together--somewhat less up to interpretation, but the specifics of it, sure, to each his or her own.

But the fact that she CALLS HIM HER BROTHER. She doesn't say "he's like a brother to me," (that could certainly be up for interpretation), Franziska outright calls him her brother. She refers to him as if he's a Von Karma when she talks abut how he's shamed himself in 2-4.

So what if she doesn't call him brother to his face? I don't call my brother "brother" to his face, I call him "David." That's completely irrelevant.

What more do you goddamn want? Do you want every other line of hers/his to be about "my brother" or "my sister"? Even if it were, would you still cling to this "OH IT COULD MEAN SOMETHING ELSE"? I'm honestly and truly baffled, seriously. What MORE could they do to make it "canon" in your eyes?

As far as Franziska is concerned, Miles Edgeworth is her brother. The ONLY wiggle room I can really see here is Edgeworth's feelings about her; he was 9 when he went to live with the Von Karmas and had already had a parent/friends, whereas she was 2. THAT'S where I could see interpretation, but the way he acts towards her solidifies it as brotherly/sisterly interaction in my eyes. Still, I will concede that THAT could be up for interpretation, but not Franziska's point of view.

And I don't know why some fans seem to have missed it. Perhaps willful ignorance? I'm not in their heads, I don't know what they're thinking.

It's not reading between the goddamn lines when she outright calls him "brother." That's reading WHAT THE LINES SAY.

I jumped to a conclusion because you're rehashing the exact same argument that he was a few days ago in this community, you have a similar tone to him, and I'm rather surprised he hasn't showed up to back you up if you aren't him. If you're not

cftf (which you didn't deny the first time I said it), then I'm sincerely sorry for that.

But basically, are you finally admitting that the only solid evidence you actually have is Franziska's already-heavily-ironic "little brother"? And shall I remind you that I agree with you, that I also personally see them as siblings, and thus am not "clinging" to anything? Honestly, what bothers me isn't your view of canon, it's the the fact that you won't acknowledge it as such, and the patronizing way you treat other people because of it.

Oh no, I'm him. I'm not on my normal computer and don't remember my LJ password, hence the anonymous. I certainly wouldn't consider myself a BNF under any stretch of the term, though.

The evidence is that she calls him brother (and I don't get where the fuck you're pulling "heavily ironic" from) not once, but on two separate and unrelated occasions in front of Phoenix Wright. While not outright saying "brother," she considers him a Von Karma and says as much in 2-4. That is the solid and concrete evidence that would be pretty conclusive on its own if you suddenly decided to ignore EVERYTHING ELSE about it, like the way they interact, the fact that they were raised together, et cetera.

There are MANY things in this series that I will leave up to interpretation regarding character relationships. My views in these cases are not canon, I will not patronize anybody else over these interpretations.

This. Is not. One of them.

Oh my. God. Is it time to. Break out. The dramatic. Periods for. Emphasis?

As a writer? I think. Yes.

Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand. I applaud your efforts.

Oh, such scathing wit. I guess that's why you call yourself a writer!

No, I'm just sick, exhausted, and don't have the patience for someone contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion whose only purpose seems to be to irritate for absolutely no reason.

Re: 21 OP here...

moebot.livejournal.com - 2007-10-02 18:54 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 21 OP here...

(Anonymous) - 2007-10-02 18:57 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2007-10-02 19:38 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2007-10-02 19:45 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2007-10-02 20:59 (UTC) - Expand

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moebot.livejournal.com - 2007-10-02 21:29 (UTC) - Expand

I calls 'em like I sees 'em, and you're a BNF.

Calling someone "little brother" is by definition ironic, under the circumstances that she is clearly younger than and also not actually related to him. Whether she considers him to be her brother or not, it is still an ironic phrase.

But you know what? We're at a total impasse here, and I'm done arguing with you.

Except it's not ironic the way she uses it, because she actually SEES him as her little brother. That's just the way she IS. She believes he needs her guidance (which is what she came to do in PW2), hence the 'little' part. It's not ironic the way she uses it; it's the nature of their relationship (hell, in 3-5 after the earthquake, she IS acting like an older sister).

I honestly can't see what more you want to have it be canon. They were raised together. She calls him brother, and sees him as a Von Karma. These are facts that we know. Taken into conjunction with how they ACT, I can honestly not see how it's anything BUT canon.

This is one of the few things I'm this adamant over; and I almost always make at least an effort to see things from another point of view. I can truthfully not see another viable "interpretation" here--it's crystalline to me that Takumi wrote them as siblings.

And for the record, I thought of them as defined canon siblings in 2-4 before I ever thought of shipping Adrian/Franziska. I wasn't even IN fandom at the moment >_>

I said I'm done and I'm done. I'm not arguing with someone who says that it's okay to patronize people just because "I'M RIGHT AND THEY'RE WRONG!!!1"

And I don't do that, 99% of the time. If something is genuinely up for interpretation, then sure, go for it.

But there are times when I don't things ARE up for interpretation. Like if someone said that Adrian Andrews' character was all about being a "do-it-yourself female who can make it on her own in a man's world." That's... wrong, that's NOT her character (and I've actually seen people argue this).

The only thing is, I haven't actually seen any EVIDENCE against what I'm arguing. I've said "This is right, because of A and B evidence which are supported by C and D in the text." And yet, through all of this, the counter argument seems to just be "No, you're wrong," without any evidence to the contrary.

I've asked multiple times and haven't yet gotten an answer; this is actually something I really would like to know the answer to--what MORE do you want? To me, everything I've laid out and ennumerated gives a crystal-clear picture in my mind that this is canon. There is very little in this series I feel so strongly about (despite my support for, say, A/F, I recognize that it's completely nowhere near canon, that IS just my interpretation of it). What more would there have to be to solidify it in canon in your eyes? Please, don't take this as being patronizing, I genuinely want to know.

Re: 21 OP here...

uncreativity.livejournal.com - 2007-10-02 19:06 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2007-10-02 19:43 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2007-10-02 21:06 (UTC) - Expand

When does it explicitly state that they were raised together?

It doesn't!

Some might call that "tough love." If viewed in a romantic context, honestly it becomes incredibly creepy and verges on emotional blackmail (particularly the airport scene). Which is why it screams familial context to me, given that there's such tremendous love--but restrained, tempered with respect and faith that the other can do it on their own without their help.

Dude. I'm not even in your goddamn family and that makes me wanna reach through my screen and smack you good and proper, regardless of if it knocks sense into you or not. You really think that's not emotional blackmail if it's familial?

As a victim of familial emotional abuse, I give you a hearty "fuck you!"

It's actually worse for that to be coming from your family- those are the people you're supposed to be able to count on the most, who know you the most, who you're supposed to be able to trust the most. So it's a worse betrayal for that kind of shit to come from a family member. And as a sibling who had a terribly rocky relationship with her little brother growing up, the only slap in the face that could sting more than that is the one that comes from a parent.

Are you saying that a mate can't have respect and faith that you can do something on your own? 'Cause if so, then goddamn, do you need to stop commenting on human behavior and relationships and emotions entirely, because you don't get it at all. And I say this as a person who has two mates, generally dislikes romance, and as a fan, tends to stay away from fluffy pairings and go for the more completely bunny-fucked-in-the-head pairings.

People who love each other will interact in the way that is comfortable for them, regardless of if it's familial or romantic in nature.

.. goddamn fandom. I hate typos. -_-*

Doesn't Franziska come back to redeem the family name? At the time of game 2 no one knows where Edgeworth is. If her primary motivation was to set him on track, it'd be a damn weird choice to go where she knew he wasn't.

I feel like someone should be hitting the "press" button with their stylus now.