fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #270 ]

I disagree. I think it's the Snape fen that missed the point of the chapter. I can't see anything in the secret that is at all untrue. He really is like that. *shrug* It's not a matter of whether he's sympathetic or not. I'm not saying he isn't. He's not. He's not a hero. Brave\=\Hero.

Pretty much, yeah. He was brave, I don't think the OP is trying to say otherwise. But he WAS jealous, vengeful, even sadistic. If Voldy had decided that the child in question was Neville Longbottom, Snape would have merrily continued on his way not caring that he condemned a family including an innocent infant boy to death (and he passed on the secret knowing this, as well). As the OP says, "oh hey, I'm totally cool with the murder of innocent kids, but don't touch the hottie"

Absolutely. It wasn't the child Snape was concerned about, but Lily. If it had been Neville he may very well still be a Death Eater. I think it's great that he loved Lily and all, but his love couldn't extend to care about anything but her- the things that are important to her not being worth it. And in a sense, he refused to change until he lost her. Despite the fact that their friendship ended because he couldn't do that years before.

I understand what you're saying. Snape didn't care about Harry. But you still don't understand his character. I'm not denying that he was damaged; he was severely damaged and wrong in most of his choices in life, especially when he joined the DE. However, you are assuming that he is capable of a healthy relationship at that age - that he was simply being selfish. He *was* being selfish, but there was a reason for that. His home life, childhood, and teenage years created a person who had nothing. He thought he owned Lily because she offered him friendship and affection. These were two things he probably never received as a child. And any child psychologist will tell you how terribly important it is for a baby to be shown affection. He was clinging on to the only person who was offering that to him. Given his past, I can easily see why he would have felt he had to do that. I'm not saying his relationship with Lily was romantic and sweet and healthy. It wasn't. It was tragic. But not because he was an asshole. He was just a poor kid who was misled by everyone in his life. He didn't know up from down or right from wrong. He was just thinking of himself in order to survive. Is that right? Is that brave? Of course not. But it isn't shameful. It's sad and horribly tragic.

See above comment and... Snape's bad choices let him to where he was. He chose being a Death Eater over genuine affection from Lily, but the mistake was made years before when he chose Slytherin over Lily. This is not to say that Slytherins are inherently bad, but he chose Slytherin pride over the one friend he had. Lily was sorted before Snape. The thing is he DIDN'T cling to her. He expected her to accept everything he did, but if he'd actually clung to her, followed her around like a puppy- he would have made more good choices. Maybe not the healthiest course of action, but healthier than what he ended up doing.

?He didn't know up from down or right from wrong. He was just thinking of himself in order to survive.

Survive? Like his survival was threatened by choosing Lily over hanging out with future death eaters? Slytherin over Lily? Mistreating Harry over at least being tolerable?

I don't see how Snape is not an asshole. I do think I understand his character. I'm not saying he's not sympathetic, but he's certainly an extremely spiteful and jealous, even cruel man. And he did care nothing about the death of a child, as the OP said.

1 - Snape genuinely though that becoming a DE would impress Lily. This is easily backed up by canon and bits found in DH. He thought becoming someone important (as the DEs had promised him he would be) would make her think better of him. Unfortunately, he was wrong. So, I don't think he thought of the choice as DE vs. Lily. He thought once he was a DE, then he would be important, and therefore become more important to her. JKR said this in several post-DH interviews.

2 - I disagree with the clinging comment. I think he did cling to Lily. He wanted her to like everything he did, not necessarily because he liked it, but because it made him look more powerful and important in her eyes. He built his world around her. (Not really a good thing to do.)

Which leads to the third point...

3 - When she picked James over him, he flipped out. Like so many, he wanted revenge, especially when she chose the one guy that made his life so much harder at school. It was a sort of betrayal to him. I'm no saying Lily was wrong in picking James. I'm just saying that it hurt him deeply. He was working so hard to earn her approval (in all the wrong ways, mind you) that her rejection of that lifestyle cut him to the bone.

4 - Of course he was trying to survive. The Wizarding World was in turmoil at the time. Voldemort was on the rise. He had fallen in with a bad crowd. And just like a gang, it's hard to get out once you're in. I imagine the DE would be the same way. Once you've taken the mark, you're stuck. The mark was a mistake of huge proportions, but it was a mistake nonetheless.

5 - As for Harry, I maintain that part of his overt hatred of Harry was for show. However, I'm sure he retained a deep dislike of Harry because he was James' song. Snape was a petty person. And I think a great deal of that pettiness stemmed from his childhood.

6 - And about caring for the death of a child... Of course he didn't. He's in a bind. The one person who has shown him true kindness is in jeopardy. He doesn't think he can save everyone, but he might be able to save her. Is it noble or brave? Hell no. Is it realistic for a man with the emotional IQ of a ten year old to grasp at that straw? Of course. I'm not saying he loved Lily unconditionally. I'm not saying it was romantic or beautiful. I'm just saying that I don't think he was quite the asshole that you're making him out to be when one looks back and takes his entire life into account.

Okay, sorry to just jump in here, but some of these don't make a lot of sense. Regarding point number 1, I recall Lily making it pretty clear to him that it was a 'them or me' situation. And I totally agree with her. And even if she didn't make it completely, 100% explicitly clear to him? I'd still think very little of him for being so selfish. I'm sorry, but - for instance - if I were a Black woman in the 1920s in America, and my best friend were a white guy who was trying to join the KKK to "impress" me? I'd think he was a huge, massive asshole, too, regardless of his bad childhood or whatever.

And as for point number three, I'm pretty sure she didn't "pick" James over Snape until after he'd cut her down with the "mudblood" in Snape's Worst Memory. Maybe it's just my reading of the scene, but wasn't that why it was his worst memory? Because that was the moment when he really lost Lily? He lashed out at her and their relationship was completely changed because of it - his choices and actions forced her away, and if he reacted badly to that, it's nobody's fault but his own. So while I'm certain that he did go a bit mad afterwards, I don't think it was because of any "clinging" - he was the one who initiated the "breakup" between the two friends, as it were. She wanted to help him, but perhaps due to machismo or shame or hatred of James, it was ultimately his choice (and Lily's understandable reaction) that broke their relationship down.

Snape is an interesting character, but I think it really cheapens the arc of his redemption to skim over the bad things he did or exuse them due to bad upbringing, or act as though the bad things he did in and of themselves are sympathetic acts. He started out with a bad home situation, but made things worse for himself when he made bad choices. He was not a good person. But he changed and that's why, in the end, he was ultimately sympathetic, I think.

4. That's a legitimate bit of personal canon and I can see some of its plausibility but given how little we know about that time, it could just as well be likely that Snape was revelling in the attention he was getting from the DE and Voldemort. He did after all spy on Dumbledore and Trewlawney during the prophecy and went away to tell his master about it, knowing that the logical conclusion would be death for if not the entire family, then certainly the chosen baby. That doesn't really speak to me of a man who's realised it was a mistake and is trying to downplay his helpfulness in the systematic persecution and segregation of muggles.

And well, we probably just have different outlooks but I don't think the crappiness of his childhood particularly absolves him of his actions - our upbringing and growth extends well into our the last stages of our lives, so at that time, teenage/young adult Snape can't hide behind an unhappy household because he's had other experiences in life. I get that people feel sympathy for him but having a reason for being a arsehole doesn't make someone any less of an arsehole in my opinion. Until they acknowledge it and genuinely try to change, that is. Which Snape never did until it was too late to save the girl he loved.

Did everyone miss the bit about Snape's life as a child. It would be completely normal for a child who is abused and who has no personal possessions to be possessive of a person that shows them attention, affection, or friendship. Snape was damaged from the beginning. He had no contact with a healthy relationship, even as a baby and child. Therefore, you cannot blame him for wanting to perpetuate unhealthy relationships as a teenager or adult. He had no idea what normal and loving were. I think it is a shame that some people don't see the tragedy of that. When you are constantly put down and picked on and have no reprieve from that in your home life, you cannot be a functioning adult with the ability to decipher right from wrong.

When you are constantly put down and picked on and have no reprieve from that in your home life, you cannot be a functioning adult with the ability to decipher right from wrong.

I think Harry Potter would disagree- having grown up in with a seemingly worse background- abuse, neglect, not a single bit of love. Except there's no evidence Snape grew up in a necessarily abusive house, just that he seemed to have issues with his father which could mean a lot of things. Oh and he was poor, but once again Harry the same. Oh it's true Harry ended up with mentors and the like and actual friends, but that's because from the beginning he made good choices. From the beginning Snape made bad ones.

Harry had friends. He had Dumbledore. He had the teachers and many adults in the Wizarding World who looked up to him. Snape had no one. It is made quite clear in the novels (not just DH) that when Snape was a student, the teachers didn't particularly like him, including Dumbledore. He also didn't have friends other than Lily or the random DE that used him. As for affection, Harry received affection from both parents as a baby. And though he may not remember it, it still had an impact on him. He knew he *had* been loved greatly. Snape never had that sense.

As I said- Oh it's true Harry ended up with mentors and the like and actual friends, but that's because from the beginning he made good choices. From the beginning Snape made bad ones.

Harry had friends and mentors because he made good choices on his own from the beginning. He accepted those people and their friendship, he actively disapproved of Draco in Diagon Alley before he ever met Ron (who he later chose over Draco again). Before Hogwarts, he showed no signs of being a poorly adjusted kid who doesn't know what's right and wrong, despite his abusive upbringing. Harry made the choice himself to fall in with the right crowd, and that was before he got close to anyone.

The teachers didn't like him much because he was a Proto Death Eater. Can you blame them? I don't think they disliked him because he was anti-social and homely.

As for affection as a baby. How do you know Snape didn't? I don't recall Snape having much of anything against his mother. He even took his personal nickname from her. Do you think she ignored him as a baby? I don't buy that and I think it's drawing a lot of conclusions based on assumption. Harry didn't at all know he had been loved greatly for the first eleven years of his life, which goes back to my first italicized statement.

I think that JKR frequently chose to emphasize that it was the choices you made rather than anything else that made you who you were. This is most prominently embodied in the Sorting Hat, of course.

But look at the characters who didn't exactly grow up in the best of environments. Voldemort and Snape succumbed to their darker desires... but then you have characters like Harry and Sirius (and Regulus, if a bit later in life) who made choices that led their paths away from where their upbringing might have led them.

Yes, you nailed it. In JKR's universe she really focuses on choice. She gives us characters with similar upbringings, and shows us how it is their personal choices and not their environment that matters. It doesn't matter what you are born, it's the choices you make. Whether this is consistent with real psychology is not really relevant, I think. It's the message within her fictional universe. Although Tom and Harry really embody this a lot better than Snape and Harry, I think.

Snape's tragedy isn't his upbringing (in fact we know next to nothing about it), it's the poor choices he made and not realizing what they were soon enough.

I love you so hardcore, like it's not even funny. Every time I had a thought pop into my head in response to anogete, you said the same thing right away.

I fear you may have stolen my brain :(

Adding to the love for your responses in this thread. :) I've been nodding my way through it and wishing that I could write with your clarity. Also, since reading DH, I'd agree that while Snape sort of is situated between Harry and Voldemort on the scale of the different choices orphans with bad pasts can make, I'm more and more inclined to see parallels between Dumbledore and Snape. While Harry and Voldemort embody a straight trajectory in the kind of polar opposite lifestyles they choose, Dumbly and Snape serve as a reminder that we are not the people we were at the age of 18 and that growth and a sharp change in the kind of outlook we have is always possible. The difference being that while their motivations both stem from the traumatic death of a loved one, Dumbledore channelled that change and epiphany outwards to reach as many aspects of his life that he could whereas Snape constantly seemed to internalise it, couldn't move beyond it and saw his own good work in protecting Harry as further reminder of his failure to do the same with Lily. Which made him a bitter bitter old man.

OR maybe I'm just babbling. I think my friend put it best after we both read it when she said that Harry Potter characters really don't know how to let anything go, do they? =D

The main point is that Harry had the belief that he HAD been loved. He knew he had parents, and even if those who raised him didn't tell him his parents loved he, he thought that they probably did. This is canon. I believe Harry mused over his parents' love for him several times. Snape knew for a fact that he wasn't loved or cared for by his parents. There is a big difference between holding out hope that someone has loved you and knowing that no one ever has. And that's a difference big enough to account for the behavior difference in Harry and Snape.

I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that Snape's mother gave him the nickname Prince. It was simply her maiden name. I think it comes across quite clearly from the early memories that he received little to no affection as a child, especially in his reaction to Lily and Petunia.

At any rate, I don't see either of us changing our minds about this. Snape is doomed to be considered an asshole by many, and a romantic hero by many more. I'm somewhere in the middle. I appreciate him a character. I still like him a great deal, even with the flaws. However, I don't deny that those flaws exist. I just seem to have a bit more sympathy for him than the haters and a bit more realism than the lovers.

I'm sure this debate could go on for ages, but I'm going to end my part in it right here. Ta ta!

Quick clarification though- I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that Snape's mother gave him the nickname Prince.

I didn't mean that she gave him the nickname, but that he took the nickname from her- as it was her maiden name. Why would he make a personal nickname of the maiden name of someone he resented for mistreating him? He clearly held his mother in some kind of positive regard.

I just believe there's no real evidence that Snape had a bad relationship with his mother. Someone can receive love from their mother and still have a not so great upbringing. They were poor and something was up with dad, but I don't see where we get the idea there were severe mother issues.

[ SECRET POST #270 ]

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