Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2013-08-10 03:23 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2013-08-10 03:23 pm
[ SECRET POST #2412 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2412 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 093 secrets from Secret Submission Post #345.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:20 pm (UTC)(link)Wait, you're trying to claim that Dean is homophobic but you're using Aaron and the Chief as examples of this? How was Dean homophobic with Aaron? If anything, he seemed pleased about Aaron hitting on him and proudly announced it to Sam, then was disappointed to find out that Aaron hadn't actually been hitting on him after all. Second, the Chief? Really? You're going to claim that the reaction of a guy who had just been tortured for decades to unexpectedly finding himself in an S&M parlor with a guy wanting to hurt him as "homophobic"? Dude. Uncool.
As for these other examples, let's see. You mentioned the vampire. That would be the one who creepily invaded his personal space and called him "pretty"? That one? The one who was acting like a predator and was one, considering that he then beat Dean up and turned him into a vampire against his will? That vampire?
As for the misogyny, huh. I just don't even really know where to go with that. Dean's behavior isn't ideal, no, but it's also not something I'd hate him for or stand up in defense of anyone calling him a crappy person. It's also not, IMO, straight up misogyny. Teasing someone for "being a girl" isn't feminist. It's got severely questionable roots. But it doesn't, for most people, act as an actual indication that a person hates women or thinks of them as less than men.
If anything, Dean demonstrates the exact opposite. Far from thinking of women as less capable than men, he's perfectly fine with working with women or with taking their lead. It comes up pretty clearly with Jo, where she makes the claim back in S2 that he doesn't want to work with her because of her gender and he fires back just as plainly that it's because she's inexperienced and she has an out from hunting that she isn't taking advantage of. It has absolutely nothing to do with her sex. That's plain from his interactions with Jo, Ellen, Jody Mills, Linda Tran, and Lisa - he never thinks less of women for being women. If he has a divide in that line at all, it's with hunters and non-hunters. He idolizes non-hunters but at the same time thinks they're less capable, which really isn't fair to either. But it's not misogyny either.
As for Ruby, what does her sleeping with Sam have to do with anything? Dean had plenty of reason to hate and distrust Ruby from the get-go. He was rightfully suspicious of her since she's a demon who was trying to get Sam to use his powers. (Both things, btw, he was proven right to be suspicious of.) I don't like that he called her a "skank" but his distrust and dislike of her was richly deserved. Again, not ideal behavior but I'm at a loss for why you can think that how he acts towards lying, manipulating demons is an indicator of how he'd act towards or think of actual women.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:36 pm (UTC)(link)Also, I don't really understand what you're arguing here? I flat-out said in my post that I like Dean, but he has some misogynistic and homophobic tendencies. Dean has some very admirable qualities. I never said he didn't. I just don't like these particular aspects of his character.
Like I said I don't like him saying homophobic and sexist things, and you're saying you also don't like him saying homophobic and sexist things, so I feel like we're in agreement there?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)Mm, I agree with you that the problem is more with the writers really not getting how offensive the shit they're spewing is than with Dean himself, but I also don't agree with the other things you're saying.
I don't remember Dean having a negative reaction when the real estate agent thought he and Sam were a couple back in S1? When he found out a gay man died in his place back in Faith, he was just as horrified as he would have been if the guy was straight. He didn't have any issues with the gay Ghostfacer? He also hasn't had an "ew gross" reaction in the slightest when people claim that Cas is his boyfriend or is in love with him. And seriously, what about Aaron? How was his response homophobic when he was grinning about it and proudly telling Sam about it, then looked really disappointed to find out Aaron wasn't hitting on him after all?
It's just very weird and outright unfair to me to judge him as homophobic when the times he more openly reacted negatively were all times with pretty understanding surrounding context. It really makes a difference, you know?
The difference is that your argument comes across to me as Dean being actually homophobic and misogynistic and I really can't agree with that. As we both agree, the majority of it is with the writers themselves and there is no doubt that they are homophobic and misogynistic. However, Dean as a character isn't. Each one of "homophobic" reactions you mentioned is invalidated by context (and actually, with the vampire? Dean wasn't even homophobic - it's not homophobic to politely tell someone you're not interested!). He's also not demonstrated outright misogyny - the examples you gave really are more sexist than misogynistic. (And I'll absolutely agree that Dean can be sexist on occasion.)
no subject
I think about how he reacted to Missouri Mosley. She mocked him, said he was a 'funny looking kid', threatened him for 'thinking' about putting his feet up and yet.... When she told him to sit down and make little anti-poltergeist bags, he did, no question.
She orders him to clean up the house afterward like *he* made the mess, and when they leave? He's helping her down the stairs, being very courteous. Dean hates demons - duh! - but unless they're screwing him over (see Bela) he does *not* hate, or treat *women* - badly.