[ SECRET POST #2419 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2419 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Way early because taking dog to the vet. :c

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 075 secrets from Secret Submission Post #346.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I love his stuff, but I can't disagree.




SPOILERS FOR STARDUST!
Rather... well, I'm not sure if it's sexist per se, but the whole way Yvaine ~falls in love with~ Tristran in Stardust made me kind of uncomfortable. I guess it's just another take on the Beauty and the Beast trope, but yeah...

Stardust is one of my favorite books ever, but if you really think about it Tristran is kind of an asshole? (tangent: I would have rather heard about his father's story than his. At least Dunstan cared about other people than himself). He holds Yvaine hostage in order to give her as a (semi)human "gift" to Victoria Forester. The only redeeming aspect of his character is that he finally gains some sense of conscience when he realizes Yvaine will essentially die if she crosses the barrier into Wall and prevents it from happening. But then again, if he didn't realize he already loved her at that point, would he have cared?

Idk, I appreciate that Gaiman made Yvaine the leader of Stormhold (only after Tristran dies, of course), but other than that...

[(Anonymous)]

Oh geez, now I remember. Yeah, okay, that's pretty shitty. I can see why people would think he's sexist then. Don't know if I have an opinion myself still (since that book's fairly old and I think Coraline is at least a great female character) but it does put things into perspective.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

Yeah, again, I love Stardust but the fact that she falls for him after that whole situation never sat right with me. I mean, I get that she's responsible for Tristran's ultimate ~metamorphosis~ but she's also a living being, so...

I haven't read Coraline, but I do love the movie (one of my favorites!).

[(Anonymous)]

haha, to be honest I was thinking of the movie. I've meant to read the book and even tried to listen to it on tape once, but I've never finished it.

[(Anonymous)]

DA: TBH, in the book Tristran does sort of come across as an arsehole. One of Gaiman's weaker works, and I say that as a fan. Jane Goldman did a great job with the script for the film, cleaning up a lot of things and developing the relationship in a natural way that the book didn't always achieve. (I'd say she did the same for Kick-Ass, seeing as I hate a lot of Mark Millar's works and the guy himself a little, but that's a whole other story.)

I wasn't uncomfortable with the situation when I read the book, but when you phrase it that way... yikes.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, the movie is great! I've been meaning to read the book, too. Not enough time in the day, though.

[(Anonymous)]

How is that sexist? You take all the attributes that made 'her' and all you choose is gender?

[(Anonymous)]

That's why I said that it wasn't "sexist per se." I know it isn't overly emphasized and outright...? I guess I just meant that the fact yet another male character basically kidnaps a female one but then she falls in love with him regardless made me kind of uncomfortable, that's all.

[funyarinpainahat]

Sexist character =/= sexist author

[(Anonymous)]

I think you're right. It's like the people (and I've met them)who say To Kill A Mockingbird is racist because it portrays racism. While I do think, as I said earlier, that Tristran appears to be an arsehole (esp. in the book), the Y/T relationship isn't exactly portrayed as ideal, and both undergo major changes in their mindset before they actually get together.

[miarrow]

I think in Stardust... he just sort of gave up. There was no climax whatsoever and he spent a paragraph describing that Yvaine and Tristan had adventures instead of writing THAT and letting us see their relationship develop. He's talented, but sometimes he's lazy which translates into some possibly problematic elements in his female characters (who I think by default he might put less thought into -- Coraline might the only exception since she was the main character).

[(Anonymous)]

But at the same time, the narrative clearly frames Tristan as in the wrong the entire time. He gets the girl, because it's essentially a fairy tale, but the entire point is he had to grow the fuck up and outgrow his entirely self-focused, head-in-ass worldview - as characterized by wall and his fixation on Victoria-as-prize - if he ever wanted to be happy.

I can see how the book might be uncomfortable, and it wasn't the best-written of Gaiman's works, but the treatment of Tristan's actions was a little too self-aware for it to read as sexist rather than just kind of weakly written to me.