fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2463

[ SECRET POST #2463

⌈ Secret Post #2463 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 043 secrets from Secret Submission Post #352.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So, you're okay with people thinking abortion is murder, but only as long as they never act on it and try and make the murder stop?

...I'm thinking you haven't quite understood the point pro-lifers have been making. We don't dislike abortion the way that you might dislike a flavor of ice cream (Turtle Tracks is not for me, but if someone else wants it...meh). Abortion is wrong the way an unprovoked stabbing of a random person is (bad, and not necessary or good in any sense whatsoever). If you aren't engaging the pro-life argument on that level, then you aren't really engaging it at all.

I've seen some pro-lifers who claim they believe abortion is wrong on a moral level, not necessarily a legal one. They're usually the ones who have strictly religious reasons for being against it (like being against same-sex relationships and contraception), but accept that religion doesn't determine law-making in our society. The ones who have more secular reasons for being pro-life but have a poor grasp of the legal definition* of murder - like you, I presume - are the ones who attack the legality of it. So...you don't speak for all pro-lifers, is what I'm trying to say.

*If abortion is "murder", then a miscarriage as a result of a woman's, say, drinking or physical activity is "criminally negligent manslaughter" and both would call for a prison sentence. So many people don't actually think about what regarding a fetus as equal to an infant would legally require...but what scares me is the people who have thought about it, and are okay with the legal consequences.

ayrt

You've got a lot of generalities going on there for someone who, by your own admission, limits your interactions with pro-lifers to pointing and laughing. If you want to know what both religious and non-religious pro-lifers actually think and the arguments they're really making (rather than getting side-tracked on bunny trails about accidental deaths, something most pro-life legislation is written specifically not to address--yes, I read the text of pro-life laws and personhood proposals and not just news articles about them) about lots of different subjects on the life issues, LiveAction and Secular Pro-Life are excellent resources and you should hit them up. I'm not going to get into a protracted debate with you. Certainly not on F!S. This is not the right venue.

My point is, as I said, any time you say something like "it's okay to be against abortion as long as you don't try to end it," or the more popular "Don't like abortion? Don't have one!" you have totally failed to address the pro-life position in any meaningful way. All you do with that is stall the dialogue.

AYRT

"Pointing and laughing"? Did you miss the part where I said pro-lifers scare me? Did that strike you as hyperbole? I have talked to or observed arguments from many of them, and while I roll my eyes at the ones who clearly haven't thought out the details and as a result are easily taken down in a debate, the ones who have thought it out are not remotely a laughing matter for me as a fertile woman living in the same country as they are.

As for pro-life legislation, I made my remark regarding the use of the word "murder" in your previous comment - in my experience, logical pro-lifers don't use that kind of legally inaccurate language. Thank you for recommending those sites, though none of them say anything I haven't read before from pro-lifers (though I find the idea that adult women who seek abortion are less culpable than the abortionists they seek interesting, and would like to get into a debate about that one in a venue that doesn't devolve into a screaming fits).

I acknowledge your point. My point was that I've encountered pro-lifers who don't hold that position, and feel that there's a difference between pro-life as a legal movement and pro-life as a moral one.

Um, I understand that some people think life begins at conception, therefore they don't want to have abortions.

But considering it's not a "baby", it's a fetus that no, can't think or feel pain or anything, it's certainly not a human, it can't be murdered.

Plus, women have the absolute right to decide if they want to go through pregnancy. Absolute. No exceptions. And I think those who try to force anti-abortion legislature are actively harming and oppressing women.

It's one thing to say "I don't like abortion and I would never have one" and it's another to try to make abortion illegal. Sorry if I don't sympathize THAT much.

But American pro-lifers don't 'act on it and try and make the murder stop'. They just picket and try to get restrictive laws passed. Such laws are ineffective - the countries with the lowest abortion rates (such as the Netherlands) have liberal abortion laws whereas many places where abortion is illegal (eg. most of South America) has a high abortion rate.

The proven, effective ways to 'make the murder stop' are to provide cheap/free, easily accessible contraception, and comprehensive sex education at an early age. If pro-lifers were campaigning for these things in order to stop abortions, I'd be right there with them. But they're not.

But American pro-lifers don't 'act on it and try and make the murder stop'.
========

What about the murder of George Tiller?

You need to understand one thing:

Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicer will never reach a common ground because they believe in two fundamentally different things: Pro-Lifers believe that a fetus is already a sentient, whole human being in possession of a soul. Pro-Choicers do not believe this.
And since there is no proof for either of those opinions, there will never be an agreement. But that also doesn't make one side right and the other side wrong.

However, considering that there is actually one undisputably real, sentient human being in the equation, i.e. the future (or not) mother, it is my belief that only her well-being and choice should matter and nobody else should get a say in it.

Technically, some pro-choicers think that the question of whether a fetus is sentient is irrelevant, because they believe that no person of any age has the right to occupy another person's body without her consent, and that such an invasion merits the use of force in self-defense.

I'm pretty sure there's preeeetty decent proof that a fetus isn't a sentient, whole human being. Y'know. The whole underdeveloped body and brain and inability to survive outside of the womb business...

The soul part isn't testable sure, but that's entirely separate from 'sentient, whole human being'.

Abortion is wrong the way an unprovoked stabbing of a random person is/i>

Well there's your problem. Anyone who invades my body without my consent is provoking me.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2463

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