fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2483 ]

[ SECRET POST #2483 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2483 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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I am not surprised about the reactions at all, I knew exactly what would be said the second I heard it on the radio and so far everyone has been just as shitty as I thought they would be...

Eh I don't really want to say this but: You know people that say there is no racism towards white people?

Well welcome to Europe where we hate everyone from Eastern Europe especially The Romani, and would prefer it if we never had to ever see any poor people in our own countries and we don't want to do anything real to help them out so we will hate them and complain about them all the time instead and see if that helps, and completely ignore any and all responsibility we have in their poverty.

Disclaimer: What you just read was not a reflection of the writers own opinions, nor is it intended to hurt anyone merely stating a fact.

The Romani people also know as Tater in Norway was completely wiped out by our government and we don't really learn about it in school, we just like to ignore it and say: look at The Sami people who we at least threat quite well today, then again we didn't castrate all of them or take away the children and wiped out their entire fucking population, killing a culture in the process...

I'm always confused when people call discrimination based on nationality "racism against white people". IMO, racism is about race-based discrimination. Nationality/country of origin has nothing to do with it.

other than that... I concur, though I think it really depends on the country. "Hate" is too strong a word for some regions.

For a long time, race and nation (in the sense of nationalism, especially pan-nationalism) were considered to be strongly connected. So it's probably because the two concepts are historically connected that people call it that.

True; it is still a thing in some countries (pan-nationalism as I've seen it always includes race issues), although I do think that it was racism that influenced nationalism rather than vice versa.

You may well be right. I just don't think it's a good way to use the term.

I'd argue that it's the opposite - that racism develops as a reaction to the development of nationalism and the idea of a national culture, and also to the European encounter with non-European cultures that happened with imperialism and colonialism. It's an attempt to explain and justify the cultural differences and the political relations that exist.

But that's kind of an academic point, I guess. You're definitely right that it's not a good way to use the term.

Well at least in my experience Eastern Europeans are not seen as completely white, so they are perceived as a slightly different race, and as a Scandinavian I can (for the most part) see the difference between a Scandinavian and someone from Russia or Eastern Europe not just based on language or clothes, but because we have slightly different facial features, just like people in Southern Europe have darker skin than us up in the north, and it isn't just country based.

So I think it lies between Nationality and race, but I am speaking from personal experience not from any kind of facts so I will not say that I am completely 100% correct and everyone should listen to me...

Probably, here in Norway our politicians (with pretty wide public support) are trying to make begging illegal and/or make sure that The Romani can't cross our borders without some kind of proof that they can pay for themselves so if we don't call that hate (and/or racism) I dunno what to call it? But it is off course different from place to place, and I can for the most part only talk for myself and my society.

Tbh, I don't see how the examples in question are ethically bad. Making begging illegal? Has nothing to do with the Romani per se. If begging is a social/economical problem and if abolishing it shall help things, I say go ahead.

Now crossing international borders is a delicate issue, but I think it's not a problem as long as actual ID documents are used as a determining criterion, not people's appearance or some bullshit social constructs. If a country has problems because of an influx of folks with certain kinds of IDs, it seems sensible to change the immigration laws.

I know all of the above may sound edgy, but I just don't consider large-scale ID-based immigration control nationalistic. The public support is probably because of nationalism, yes, but that's a different matter.

@the non-white Eastern Europeans thing: ...huh?.. Weird. I kind of assumed everyone considered the number of race types to be four, and Russians are as white as it gets.

Making begging illegal because The Romani, that is the only point they use, ignoring the fact that we have Norwegian beggars too, and it isn't like it will help anything, harrasment is already illegal and the only thing it would do is make poor people poorer.

It is against EU regulations, we get free travel in EU (Through EEC) and in return every EU citizen gets to travel across our borders freely, it isn't a national law it is a EU law and we are not allowed to stop anyone from Europe crossing our borders (Off course we can look for drugs and such and individuals can still be barred from crossing again), because if we did we would be kicked out of the deal and then we have to show our passport at every EU country...

I wouldn't care about it if it wasn't based solely on the fact that we don't want Romani people to cross our borders and that begging was not an issue before we got more nonNorwegian beggars, or that we want to freely travel across Europe, but want to stop one group of people from doing the same across our borders...

Russians as a whole look a bit Asian, just like Eastern Europeans do. The whitest of the white are us Scandinavian, closely followed by the Northern part of Europe, then Southern Europe and at the "bottom of whiteness" Eastern Europe and Russia. All considered white, but there are different "levels" of whiteness, and I honestly do not mean to offend anyone by saying this, I really honestly do not think anyone are less than me based on their skin colour, I am just illustrating what at least Scandinavians look at other parts of Europe as.

Well, it is bad if it's against the laws the country once agreed upon, IA.

As to the rest of it, I totally get how the underlying nationalism is the problem, not the regulations themselves. And I don't think I really have any kind of non-ambiguous opinion on the matter - the border between acknowledging that a group of people presents a social problem and holding nationalistic views is super subtle. For a while now I've lived in a country where there's a distinct issue with a certain ethnic group (to which I - at least by blood - belong), and I just... I stopped trying to work it out. Every time I encounter someone who's passionate about it, I'm like 'OMG not this shit again'. The only thing I can say with any kind of certainty is what I've already said upthread - a community is not an entitity. Stop treating communities the way you treat people. There's no such thing as collective responsibility.

Thanks for the information! I certainly don't find it offensive or bad, just... baffling.

Yes, yes it is...

Yeah, that must have sucked for you? I completely agree with you on the collective responsibility thing btw, I judge a person based on what that person does, not from where they are from.

No problem, I just don't usually like explaining this online because I am not racist nor do I want to be associated with it, but once in a while things have to be explained. Oh and I asked a couple of my friends today if they can see the difference between Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans and they all answered "for the most part yes.", nor do they consider Russians to be "completely white", I know that isn't really a representative group of people, but I was curious to. It isn't really something we talk a lot about, there is a lot of Us and Them mentality, but mostly it isn't talk about how they look, just about groups of people in general.

It does suck sometimes, but a) right now I have more pressing problems and b) I just try to remember that, no matter what, there is always basic human dignity.

Shitstorms in media often upset me, though, as does the epic internalised nationalism. But this particular problem seems to be solving itself - new generations come, and they inevitably hold more progressive views on the matter than the older people. Hopefully, one day this will cease to be an issue.

My main problem is that I see just how complex the matter is, and so all my opinions pretty much consist of "on the one hand..., but on the other hand...", and the disagreement between the two halves is so strong that I cannot conclude anything satisfactory.

Ay, I can tell the difference, too, though I never thought of it as race-related.

Thanks for the discussion :)

It's pretty hilarious you wrote this right below
Stereotyping is about assuming that a nation is an entity, has collective responsibility, collective consciousness, and collective blame.

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[ SECRET POST #2483 ]

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

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Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani