[ SECRET POST #2527 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2527 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 042 secrets from Secret Submission Post #361.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

If they were, they probably would have ended up equally dead without the intervention of the heroes, given that they were standing in the middle of a supervillain/alien/whatever attack.

[crunchysunrises]

Maybe, maybe not. It would probably depend on whether or not the aliens wanted to raze the place or simply conquer it and keep the locals around more or less intact to run the place.

And regardless, no one is that rational when it comes to the actual, proximate cause of their loved one's death - if Thor drops a building on a handful of people, he'd best expect their living relatives to call him a villainous murderer and campaign for consequences.

[diet_poison]

Wait, are you saying you think the Avengers should have just let the aliens rule on the chance that they wanted to do so peacefully (never mind the legitimacy of wanting political autonomy from a strange group of people)?

And as I pointed out before, just because their irrational response makes it understandable, does NOT make it okay. Thor doesn't deserve to experience legal consequences because of someone's irrational grief response to Thor doing the right thing by saving a bunch of peoples' lives.

[crunchysunrises]

I at no no point said that I thought the aliens should rule. The previous poster said that everyone would've ended up dead without the heroes' intervention. That's a fallacious assumption, as is your assumption that I'm in favor of allowing people to invade your territory.

It's not really irrational to hold a grudge against private individuals who, having been empowered by a random shadow agency that no one knows anything about rather than the leaders of your own government, proceed to rampage through the streets. It's not like the people on the ground are going to have a really thorough understanding of who's there to murder then and who's defending them when both sides are killing them left and right with energy beams and falling masonry.

And that difference in perspective and who knew what when is why Thor and Co are going to get flak - unless Capt. America is a much smoother talker than I think he is.

[(Anonymous)]

Replying, "Maybe, maybe not. It would probably depend on whether or not the aliens wanted to raze the place or simply conquer it and keep the locals around more or less intact to run the place" to the statement, "If they were, they probably would have ended up equally dead without the intervention of the heroes, given that they were standing in the middle of a supervillain/alien/whatever attack" suggests that you wouldn't accept loss of life as a justifiable price to pay in order to prevent a "peaceful" alien occupation - that, unless the heroes are certain that the aliens want to raze the place completely, it would be better not to intervene and risk dropping a building on someone in the course of stopping the alien invasion. If that wasn't what you meant, you should've been more precise.

[crunchysunrises]

It'd be more accurate to say that I believe in look at all the possibilities, rather than jumping to conclusions regarding what would be "best" for the people at ground zero.

Because what's best for them and what's best for the rest of the planet are two very different things. And both you and the original poster seem to be mixing the two things up.

[(Anonymous)]

Because what's best for them and what's best for the rest of the planet are two very different things.

Then which should a hero who finds himself forced into the position of having to choose between the two favor? And should he be penalized for making that choice?

[(Anonymous)]

sorry but that's part-and-parcel of being a hero. not everyone is going to like your stance. not everyone is going to like your decisions and not everyone is going to like the choices you make between two evils.

[diet_poison]

It's not really irrational to hold a grudge against private individuals who...proceed to rampage through the streets.

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. Let me repeat: The Avengers were NOT rampaging through the streets. The ALIENS were rampaging through the streets, and the Avengers were trying to stop them. It's really important that you understand this difference.

It's not like the people on the ground are going to have a really thorough understanding of who's there to murder then and who's defending them when both sides are killing them left and right with energy beams and falling masonry.

I think it's safe to assume that even if they didn't know in the meantime (and I find it unlikely that "Avengers" v. "weird creepy aliens" is really that difficult of a fight to interpret) they'd have plenty of time to figure out afterward what actually happened before tossing blame around. Like, this is actually way more clear cut than a lot of other fictionalized Good Versus Evil battles. It's pretty obvious who the good guys were, and unless you count Hawkeye's period of being brainwashed (which clearly does not count if you understand what brainwashing is), at no point did any of them do something that made it look like they were not clearly on the side of Good in this fight.

[crunchysunrises]

LOL - I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse too!

You seem to think that everyone in that world is going to share the same perspective of the Avengers that they - and by extension, the narrative and the entirety of the MCU franchise - share.

They aren't.

From their perspective, they were at lunch and people started gratuitously blowing things up and dropping bug things from the sky. And, yeah, a dozen people might have noticed Capt America hauling them out of a bus but, for the majority of the population, there's a bunch of lunatics attempting to murder them for no apparent reason.

It's clear cut from the viewers' perspective because you've spent an hour and a half watching them go through the (secret!) steps, you've got aerial shots and to overhear their comm discussions on how to help people but it certainly wouldn't be obvious from the average citizens' perspective. And no, when stuff goes Very Very Wrong On A Large Scale, it's not immediately obvious to anyone on site what's going on.

[(Anonymous)]

But what does some civilian's heat-of-the-moment confusion have to do with whether a superhero is doing the right thing, or whether they should be attacked or penalize for doing it? Moreover, why is some civilian's heat-of-the-moment confusion worth more than the opinion the same civilian might have a day later, after watching the 24-hour news network coverage of the battle that would contain much of the information he didn't have previously?

[diet_poison]

Did you like...not notice the GIANT METALLIC ALIENS rampaging through the city or something?? you keep acting like they don't exist but I'm pretty sure pretty much all of the civilians could see them and what they were doing.

You seem to think that everyone in that world is going to share the same perspective of the Avengers

I'm not talking about the Avengers' perspective. I'm talking about a relatively objective observation of a) what happened, b) what I believe to be morally right and c) what I think, based on the information I have, that civilians would have seen and thought, i.e. how the battle appears to someone with no background info.

I feel like you are ignoring a really, REALLY important piece of the equation. I kind of feel like a broken record but ALIENS. Big, gray, spiky, powerful, bloodthirsty aliens UTTERLY WRECKING SHIT. They aren't invisible and they are really important to this discussion, but every time they're brought up you completely ignore them in your response.

[(Anonymous)]

DA (than any of the others)

I gotta add, there's also a very high likelihood that there will be some sort of video of what happened going around, if not from multiple sources. There was probably some naive kid taking camera phone footage of the attack who later (or even in the moment if they can get access to it on their phone) post it to the internet. Hundreds of cameras in and around undamaged shops, banks, and other buildings that may have still had power. Satellite imagery (this is the city Tony Stark's building is in, if anyone thinks there aren't agencies around the world who have it under constant surveillance, they're being a bit naive).

Knowledge that it was an alien attack and the Avengers were defending everyone is more than likely going to get out and be accepted by the population at large.

[diet_poison]

This is an excellent point, anon.

[(Anonymous)]

seriously?

there were rape apologists for the steubenville football players EVEN AFTER THE EVIDENCE CAME OUT that they were guilty as fuck.

so no. even when faced with IRREFUTABLE PROOF ZOMG, some people are not going to believe it.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

How does "accepted by the population at large" preclude "Some people are not going to believe it"?

Most people will believe. Some people will be perceived as nutjobs. It's the way of the world (especially America I think).