fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2564 ]

[ SECRET POST #2564 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2564 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 013 secrets from Secret Submission Post #366.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

lol I didn't expect people to get quite this annoyed over my flippant comment.

So let me explain further.

Eleven is a bag of dicks.

Rose is an ethereal goddess.

lololol. ok ok. I'll be serious now.

I think Eleven is a tool and he's pretty awful to the people traveling with him. Kicking the Ponds out of the Tardis. Hiding Amy's pregnancy from her. Telling Clara he wouldn't send her away again and then literally a second later, doing exactly what he said he wouldn't do.

I wouldn't want a character that I love as much as Rose having to travel with him if that's how he treats the people he travels with.

There. That explain things more?

Uh, that's not unique to Eleven. Nine and Ten where both dicks to their companions, as were earlier Doctors. That's kind of a trait of the Doctor, period.

I won't deny that Nine and Ten were sometimes dicks, but usually the narrative called them out on it. And nothing that Nine or Ten every did bothered me as much as some of the shit that Eleven pulled.

"Oh yeah... I'll totally go look for your baby that got stolen because of me!" *goes coat shopping instead and screens Amy's calls*

That has nothing to do with Eleven as a character, and everything to do with Moffat's inability to follow through on a plot, though.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I mean, Eleven doesn't exist independent of the writing for him. So even if the reason that Eleven does some douchey things is because Moffat doesn't know how to write plots (for example, at the end of Day of the Moon when Eleven is like "scared, lost little girl running around? should we help her? NAAAAAH LET'S GO HAVE SOME MORE ADVENTURES") doesn't negate the fact that it is something that Eleven does and thus negatively impacts how I view him.

AYRT

True, but all of Moffat's male characters are sociopaths at best and psychopaths at worst. (See also: BBC Sherlock.) So, again, it all comes back to Moffat's inability to write.

...that said, I have no dog in the hunt re: Rose/Ten vs. Rose/Eleven because I don't like Nu!Who. So.

Pretty much this. Eleven had such potential, but it never fully developed under the shitty plot and character writing. Some goes for Clara, really.

Agreed. I still love Matt, and his Doctor was so deliciously alien in all the right ways that would have made me really happy after Ten, but Moffatt's writing just ruined him.

+1 if it had been handled better, and the show written by a team of writers (instead of the odd guest appearance of Neil Gaiman), Eleven could have been better than Four.

Nothing Eleven did was more douche-y than Ten's attitude towards Martha.

... uh, no. he was insensitive towards Martha but that's not even NEAR the level of douche-y Eleven gets all the time.

Ten pretty much dumped Rose to babysit his genocidal double that neither he nor Donna explained had picked up aspects of Donna's personality (so you know, while hopefully that makes him a BETTER match for Rose, there's the possibility it might...not, and maybe she should have been given time to process this rather than being slammed with decision time and pretty much strong-armed into making a "choice").

So really the idea that Eleven is bad for Rose after Ten's move there just makes me laugh. At the same time, I didn't find anything special about Rose and then found her overplayed, so I'm just glad that she will in all likelihood never be returning period.

Meh, I never saw 11 as malicious, more like in a constant childlike state of wonder about the world around him, and oblivious to lot of things.

I liked Eleven. And I liked Rose (but not up to the point where she's ten feet above every other companion ever).

Edited 2014-01-10 00:53 (UTC)

He was already over 900 years old and then he spent ~1000 years as Eleven.

IT'S TIME FOR HIM TO GROW THE FUCK UP. The idea that he doesn't understand humans holds zero water with me because he's supposed to be reasonably intelligent. He's spent hundreds of years traveling with humans. HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIGURE THIS OUT. So what's supposed to be ~charming~ just annoys me.

I don't think Rose is above every other companion ever. She's my sentimental favorite, but I probably love Martha just as much as Rose if we take away my sentimental attachment to the companion that made me fall in love with the show. I also have a lot of affection for Donna. I've enjoyed a lot of Classic Who companions.

But this secret brought up Rose in particular.

Eleven needs to grow up? How about Ten who we now know actually wasted a regeneration because he had issues and decided he was dying instead of regenerating, threw a hissy fit when Harriet Jones acted in a way he disliked, decided he had the right to change unchangeable history because he was a Time Lord, treated Martha horribly, and Donna even worse?

The difference is that the narrative actually addressed those issues.

I am not sure what you're referring to in the first bit. Are you talking about the creation of Ten II? Which, was only confirmed to waste a regeneration by Moffat. RTD didn't count it as one.

As far as Harriet Jones goes, Ten was actually punished him for deposing her. And ftr, I don't think Ten was ENTIRELY wrong for not liking that Harriet killed thousands of retreating aliens. But anyway, removing Harriet Jones led to the power vacuum that Saxon stepped in to fill.

And like did you even WATCH Waters of Mars???? Because the point of that episode is that it was a BAD IDEA to mess with history and he regretted his actions.

Treated Martha horribly? Eh. He said a few things that were insensitive. But I'm not sure that qualifies as treating Martha horribly.

And Donna? ??????????????????????? Are you referring to him saving her life by wiping her memories or is there something I missed?

Ten was punished in the sense that his actions had consequences, but the narrative was still that he was right (and he certainly thought so). And while I don't think he was wrong to think she was wrong, he certainly was wrong in his response. Very wrong.

With the creation of Ten II, even if it wasn't a wasted regeneration, it was still him having issues with something he'd already done at least 9 times and wasting the regeneration energy because he couldn't let go. And the point where he almost wanted to let Wilf die and talked about how he was more important was really gross.

I'll give you Water of Mars, though the fact that he even got to the point of acting that way was pretty bad.

He told Martha every trip was just one more, taking a while to take her on as a full companion and leading her on. Her feelings were obvious, but he didn't have the decency to let her down easy. She had to realize on her own that he'd never return the feelings. He said really insensitive things. He took her to all the same places as Rose and basically treated her as a second-best substitute for who he really wanted (which isn't bad to feel that way given his romantic feelings for Rose, but its wrong to make it so obvious to Martha).

I'm referring to him taking her choice away. She specifically said no. She would rather have died. He wouldn't let her make the choice. Which seems pretty equal to Eleven taking choice away from his companions and shows that the Doctor in general does that.

lol. I don't think not wanting to die (which is how Ten thought of regeneration, whether you agree with it or not) is a bad thing. And the point is that while he was angry at the situation, HE STILL DIED TO SAVE WILF.

After losing Rose and getting shot down by Donna in TRB, Ten was reluctant to make an effort to connect with someone again. So yes, at first he was just like "one more trip", but then Martha said "that's not gonna work for me" and then he gave her a key to the Tardis.

He said a couple of insensitive things and yes, instead of 'letting her down easy' he chose to just ignore the situation in order to avoid awkwardness, but that's hardly 'treating Martha horribly'. He took her to ONE same place as Rose. And he didn't really treat her as second best. People like to cite 'Rose would know' as an example, but he's not even talking to Martha. Martha takes it personally, but the Doctor is just trying to figure out what is going on and wishing that Rose were there to help him figure things out like she'd done in the past. Ten had a few dickish moments, like calling Martha a novice in "The Shakespeare Code". But tales of him mistreating her are greatly exaggerated.

He DID appreciate her and he says so on a couple of occasions in series 3. And then in "Partners in Crime" he tells Donna that he handled things badly.

As far as Donna goes, she was PANICKING. I think that if she calmed down and they had a nice chat where the Doctor affirmed that she was wonderful all on her own and didn't need memories of travels with him to be great, she could have agreed to what he said. But RTD sacrificed that in the name of creating a dramatic moment.

I mean, I REALLY don't think that the take home message of Donna's story is "BETTER DEAD THAN NEVER HAVING TRAVELED WITH THE DOCTOR". So.

Yeah.

I think its really a matter of interpretations that favor what you like and disfavor what you don't on both our parts because I disagree with pretty much everything here. I think the situations you mention with Martha are worse than you are making out, that saying what he did right in front of Wilf was a pretty bad thing, that regeneration is not death and Ten should have known better and that either way thinking you are more important than another person is pretty gross (I so much better like Eleven's never having met an unimportant person line).

And while Ten lost Rose and Donna said no, the Doctor had lost companions before. Some had died in fact (its pretty telling that Donna first assumes that Rose died). Even if Ten was in love with her in a way he never was with anyone else (which I don't buy), it still doesn't justify his treatment of Martha.

And for the record, I do think RTD bears most of the burden for the sexism of Donna's end (that is equal to or worse in my mind to the worst of Moffatt's if certainly not as prolific), taking the choice away was still wrong. Its okay to choose not to lose memories. For some people, losing important parts of your personality and becoming the person you used to be (especially if you don't like that person) would be worse than dying, and its okay to choose that. It should have been Donna's choice. The right answer is not "Better dead than never having traveled with the Doctor" but rather "both are horrible choices, and she gets to choose which is worse for her".

I just want to say, I agree so much with your last sentence that it hurts. It beautifully sums up everything that I hated about how the show treated Donna.

Don't forget how Nine and Ten treated Mickey. Still annoys me.

Oh yes. And Jackie.

Ayrt

They were pretty much dicks to anyone who wasn't Rose.

wait. wait. why was he Eleven for 1000 years? how? i thought Timelords aged fairly normally outside of regenerations? (or else how was 1 so old?) i'm increasingly glad i stopped watching this show.

I mean, who knows WHY Moffat wrote it like that, but yeah.

He spent a hundred years running from death at the end of series 6. And then he spent years sulking above Victorian London after the Ponds left. And then he burned through like 300 years in his final episode.

IDK. I DON'T GET IT EITHER.

I'm not sure why Moffat wrote it like that, but there it is.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2564 ]

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