[ SECRET POST #2601 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2601 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 098 secrets from Secret Submission Post #372.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[applemagpie]

And what is the ratio to female heroes to male heroes that have had their own solo series? Maybe something like twenty to one? And the number of female heroes that have had a solo series that went over two hundred issues? How many times has a female hero been central to an event? There are hardly any female creators working in the big two companies, on top of that.

Stop pretending that gender equality exists in the industry, which is driven by the fear that if they don't appeal to the 'boy's club' they'll lose fans and sales.

[applemagpie]

I didn't say that female heroes are never central to any events. I'm comparing them to how central they are in storylines next to the male heroes.

The 200 issue benchmark is passed by characters that are the most popular, longstanding, and central to the universe. Lots of fan-favorite, popular male heroes have passed it. Hardly any female hero ever has. Usually the only time it happens to a female hero is if they're in a team series.

One of the reasons I read superhero comics is because I love female characters, and do I think there are a lot of great ones. But the idea that the industry actually even gives half a shit about its female characters, compared to the male ones? Bull. Shit.

[applemagpie]

Sorry, I just realized my comment came off as a bit bitchy. But just saying that the superhero comics industry is great with female characters just completely shuts down the legitimate complaints that female comic fans have had for years about how they feel female characters are treated, and shoves all of the longstanding and deep-seated issues of misogyny that superhero comics have always had, under the carpet, nice and out of sight.

[(Anonymous)]

just curious, what books are you thinking of? because in the "big" team books/events from the last 10-15 years I haven't noticed women getting short shrift next to men, and I don't read many solo series.

I also don't see how my opinion is "completely shutting down" and shoving other female comic fans' legitimate complaints under the carpet. I just wish we could talk about the progress comics have made and the really, really good characters and stories we have right now without it turning into this exact discussion we're having right here. am I allowed to be a girl reading comics without my preferences and opinions being used to make a political statement about the state of the industry as a whole? can I think that Carol Danvers was awesome even when her legs were showing?

[applemagpie]

I'm a lot more familiar with DC than I am Marvel, but pretty much every event and book that I've read? I'm kind of curious as to what you think are the numerous books where the female heroes are just as important and central to the story as the male ones.

If you're not shutting down other female comic fans' complaints, then why has everything you've said so far has been completely dismissive towards anyone's feelings about sexism in the industry? It only turned into this 'exact discussion' because of that.
You seem to be conflating the point that 'the industry has a long history of treating its female characters badly compared to its male characters' with 'female characters are treated like shit 100% of the time in comics and have never mattered in any story.' Of course there's been progress, and lots of great stories written about female characters. I think some of the big writers in the industry have done their best work with female characters (like Brubaker's amazing run on Catwoman). And no, of course there isn't anything wrong with liking Carol Danvers when her costume showed her legs. I'm a bi woman who personally loves a lot of the 'objectifying' art that shows up in a lot of books. But just because I love superhero comics and also love talking about the awesome stuff about them, doesn't mean I'm also just going to cheerfully ignore and accept all the shit that female characters and female readers constantly get in the industry. If you want to, that's your choice, but don't expect others to feel the same way.

[applemagpie]

I'm being a grump here in this thread. But I'm just going to bitch my way through. I'm not arguing with you because you said you love female heroes without adding the disclaimer: 'by the way, the industry is sexist!', I'm grumping at you because you dismissed the person that said female characters in comics are usually "sidekicks and secondary". And that's kind of a true statement. Not because the female characters are less interesting and awesome, but because, yeah, the 'big' female characters like Spider-woman and Scarlet Witch are kind of secondary, when you compare them to male heroes like Hulk, Iron Man, Spider-man, and Captain America, who the entire Marvel universe pretty much revolves around.

[applemagpie]

It almost feels like we're arguing two different things against each other, and kind of just shouting over the top's of each others heads.
I haven't read any of these events, but yes, I do get what you're saying. I have been this whole time, actually.
I never said that female heroes are only peripheral to stories, or that they don't matter. (Although DC was a lot worse at including female heroes in events. Then again, when I was reading DC comics, big crossover events were never as much a thing. I still think DC, at the time, was a lot better at featuring solo titles with female heroes that made up for it, but anyways.)

Yes, I do think it's great that female heroes have been central to a lot of storylines, and that DC and Marvel do go out of their way to give female heroes solo titles, and comics have done a lot of great things with female heroes. This stuff is all awesome. I never once said the industry only treats female characters badly, and I am just in shock that a Marvel title had a female hero led a team that actually sold well, how can that be the case, when the industry is just full of woman-hating chauvinists??

My point is that, just because that's the case, it doesn't mean that sexism in the industry is over. And just because you tell me that you don't care about it, it doesn't mean that I don't.
The female heroes are still far more peripheral to the companies and a fanbase as a whole. Are there any female heroes that can sell just as well as, or can hold just as many titles as any of the popular male heroes? I don't think there are any. Does Marvel and the fanbase actually care about Captain Marvel and Spider-woman just as much as they do Iron Man and the Hulk?
Hell, like eighty percent of the comics I have read and have bought are about male heroes. The entire comics industry revolves around male heroes. It's still incredibly rare to get a female led solo title, and even rarer for that title to sell amounts close to what the popular male heroes sell. (It does happen of course, for example I know Azzarello's Wonder Woman was selling incredibly well. But it's the exception rather than the norm.) And the big cross-over events only sell so well because they have the big male heroes carrying them. You can't tell me everyone was picking up House of M, because, 'yay! It's a Scarlet Witch story!'.

So, yeah, I'm going to argue if anyone tells me that the industry is great with female heroes.

[(Anonymous)]

Everything you said is true and I appreciate you saying it better then I could. I understand how people could want to defend their favorites but ignoring the overarching trend of how comics and the industry treats women does not make me comfortable at all.

[applemagpie]

Yeah, there's a lot of sexism in the industry, and I don't think it's something that should just be brushed aside

[(Anonymous)]

It's also probably worth pointing out that if a series reaches, say, 50 issues, but doesn't reach 200, that means that someone made the decision to shut down an ongoing series that was already well-established. The overwhelming reason that that would happen is because the sales figures don't support its continuation. That problem comes from the fans, not the "suits".

[(Anonymous)]

YES!