fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2601 ]

[ SECRET POST #2601 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2601 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 098 secrets from Secret Submission Post #372.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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(reply from suspended user)

Except that is misogyny? Studio executives blame the fact that those movies had a female lead on them being flops, not on the 5 million other things that made them horrible movies. There have also been a ton of bad male superhero movies, but you don't see them stopping those.

And to your everyday person, female superheros are either sidekicks or completely unknown. They are rarely the face of a franchise.

(reply from suspended user)

There are tons BUT the superhero movie trend started again with Batman Begins (Spider Man was out before that but Batman Begins was the catalyst). And of course studios are going to take a chance on a new Batman movie. He is a money making franchise + a money making director.

The success of Batman Begins led Marvel to make Iron Man. The success of Iron Man (due to fantastic casting) led to the Marvel verse starting. So of course they are going to continue to make more. Marvel is setting up a Universe. DC is sticking with their money makers of Superman and Batman.

Why should either studio take a chance when they have a huge audience already?

That's basically the problem though, that having a female led movie is considered "taking a chance".

And you can't start a trend without taking a chance, right now studios that make superhero movies are just following the trend, but eventually moviegoers get tired and move on, that's when studio's have the opportunity to either do something that would be considered a risk, or keep on doing what they've been doing.

Risks can yield positive results, I understand why studios are conservative about these things, but being conservative also puts major limitations on what you can do and how long you'll be successful at it.

Exactly. Do people forget that Batman Begins was a huge risk, considering that the last Batman film was Batman and Robin? People were convinced that they could never save the franchise from that stain, reboot or not.

And after THAT, they took a risk by using Heath Ledger as the Joker, because most people knew him as a pretty-faced romantic lead. People swore up and down that he couldn't do it.

And let's not get started on the Avengers film. Multiple hero characters that needed equalish screentime to further develop their arcs without it being bloated, mostly unknown superheroes taking center stage for the first time, and battles that could justify a guy like Thor and a guy like Hawkeye in the same fight. It was a massive risk that could have fucked up everything if it failed.

And what is the ratio to female heroes to male heroes that have had their own solo series? Maybe something like twenty to one? And the number of female heroes that have had a solo series that went over two hundred issues? How many times has a female hero been central to an event? There are hardly any female creators working in the big two companies, on top of that.

Stop pretending that gender equality exists in the industry, which is driven by the fear that if they don't appeal to the 'boy's club' they'll lose fans and sales.

(reply from suspended user)

I didn't say that female heroes are never central to any events. I'm comparing them to how central they are in storylines next to the male heroes.

The 200 issue benchmark is passed by characters that are the most popular, longstanding, and central to the universe. Lots of fan-favorite, popular male heroes have passed it. Hardly any female hero ever has. Usually the only time it happens to a female hero is if they're in a team series.

One of the reasons I read superhero comics is because I love female characters, and do I think there are a lot of great ones. But the idea that the industry actually even gives half a shit about its female characters, compared to the male ones? Bull. Shit.

Sorry, I just realized my comment came off as a bit bitchy. But just saying that the superhero comics industry is great with female characters just completely shuts down the legitimate complaints that female comic fans have had for years about how they feel female characters are treated, and shoves all of the longstanding and deep-seated issues of misogyny that superhero comics have always had, under the carpet, nice and out of sight.

just curious, what books are you thinking of? because in the "big" team books/events from the last 10-15 years I haven't noticed women getting short shrift next to men, and I don't read many solo series.

I also don't see how my opinion is "completely shutting down" and shoving other female comic fans' legitimate complaints under the carpet. I just wish we could talk about the progress comics have made and the really, really good characters and stories we have right now without it turning into this exact discussion we're having right here. am I allowed to be a girl reading comics without my preferences and opinions being used to make a political statement about the state of the industry as a whole? can I think that Carol Danvers was awesome even when her legs were showing?

(reply from suspended user)

I'm a lot more familiar with DC than I am Marvel, but pretty much every event and book that I've read? I'm kind of curious as to what you think are the numerous books where the female heroes are just as important and central to the story as the male ones.

If you're not shutting down other female comic fans' complaints, then why has everything you've said so far has been completely dismissive towards anyone's feelings about sexism in the industry? It only turned into this 'exact discussion' because of that.
You seem to be conflating the point that 'the industry has a long history of treating its female characters badly compared to its male characters' with 'female characters are treated like shit 100% of the time in comics and have never mattered in any story.' Of course there's been progress, and lots of great stories written about female characters. I think some of the big writers in the industry have done their best work with female characters (like Brubaker's amazing run on Catwoman). And no, of course there isn't anything wrong with liking Carol Danvers when her costume showed her legs. I'm a bi woman who personally loves a lot of the 'objectifying' art that shows up in a lot of books. But just because I love superhero comics and also love talking about the awesome stuff about them, doesn't mean I'm also just going to cheerfully ignore and accept all the shit that female characters and female readers constantly get in the industry. If you want to, that's your choice, but don't expect others to feel the same way.

(reply from suspended user)

(no subject)

applemagpie - 2014-02-16 05:39 (UTC) - Expand

(reply from suspended user)

(no subject)

applemagpie - 2014-02-16 20:35 (UTC) - Expand

Everything you said is true and I appreciate you saying it better then I could. I understand how people could want to defend their favorites but ignoring the overarching trend of how comics and the industry treats women does not make me comfortable at all.

(reply from suspended user)

Yeah, there's a lot of sexism in the industry, and I don't think it's something that should just be brushed aside

It's also probably worth pointing out that if a series reaches, say, 50 issues, but doesn't reach 200, that means that someone made the decision to shut down an ongoing series that was already well-established. The overwhelming reason that that would happen is because the sales figures don't support its continuation. That problem comes from the fans, not the "suits".

YES!

That reminds me of that one Powerpuff Girls photoset that keeps floating around Tumblr, with the radfem supervillain asking the PPG if they can name any independent female heroes other than Wonder Woman.

For one thing, people seem content to complain about the lack of female heroes, but... there... isn't exactly such a lack? Marvel has about a million billion independent lady heroes, and so does DC. Hell, one of DC's bestsellers is and was Birds of Prey--a series dedicated entirely to a female superhero team. Yeah, maybe there aren't any big blockbuster movies just yet, but that's more to do with the suits in charge, and less to do with the audience. You see all kind of people howling for a Black Widow movie, or an Alias (the Jessica Jones one) TV series. The suits are slow to hop on the bus, but that's corporate bullshit for you.

(There was a Birds of Prey TV series, but from what I'm told, it was of debatable quality.)

I also think people are confused about female legacy heroes or female heroes that got their start as sidekicks or were inspired by male heroes. Maybe back in the Golden Age, they started out as tagalongs, but none of them are like that anymore. What about Batwoman? Or the Renee Montoya Question? Or any of the Batgirls? They're all amazing and distinct characters with their own personalities and backgrounds, but a common inspiration. But a lot of people--even people who want more superheroine stories--see that, say, Cass Cain was inspired by Batman and go "CLEARLY SHE'S JUST A SECOND-CLASS SIDEKICK TAKING THE NAME OF A MALE HERO HARRUMPH" when it's not really true.

The comic that got me into reading superhero comics was Birds of Prey, and Black Canary will always be one of my favourite heroes of all time. Cassandra Cain will also always be one of my most favourite members of the Bat family.
And let me tell you, Cass was subject to some of the shittiest writing and most inconsistent characterization, before DC eventually didn't know what the hell to do with her, and decided to shaft her to Hong Kong for no good reason, and she was eventually forgotten about for good in the Batman comics (and come reboot time, completely erased from existence, and referred to as 'toxic' by the head of DC). And she was almost never included in any of the Batfamily cross-over events. She wasn't even considered a contender for Bruce's cowl, after he died.
When us fans complain that the industry doesn't treat the female characters as well as the male characters, it's not because we're not knowledgeable about comics, or because we're 'radfems', thank you very much. And it's not because we think the female characters are less interesting or awesome than the male characters. It's because we know our favourite female characters will almost never get their own books, or things like their own movies, and are usually not considered to be as important to the creators as the male characters are.

FTR I didn't accuse the fans of being "radfems," it was just that one PPG villain.

But anyway, it kind of goes back to what I said--it's corporate/industry dickery. Fans like lady heroes, the suits (like Quesada and Didio and company) are either jerks who just don't wanna give them to us or don't know how to handle them, or a little from column A and a little from column B. (Also, I'm like maths% sure that Didio just hates every character and story ever.) Gail Simone doesn't even know WTF is up with DC's various editorial practices, and she works for them. (Or did. I gave up with the nu52 and haven't cracked a DC comic since.) It's mismanagement upon idiocy upon dickery.

And I've seen a lot of people on Tumblr (which I know isn't any kind of good representative example for anything) who are all "EW LEGACY HEROES" in general and it always bugs me a bit to see it.

Also, I love your icon, that's super-cute. I haven't seen that picture before.

Got'cha.

Yeah, it is corporate/industry dickery. And just the whole idea that the people who are reading comics are going to the typical white guy demographic, and if they want to sell comics they have to appeal to them. It kind of is part of the fan's fault too - the fans of the female heroes are a bit in a minority, we just seem larger because we're so outspoken. But yes, there are still a lot of fans who want to read about female heroes, or who won't stop reading because there are female heroes.
That sums up Didio well.

Thanks! I didn't make the icon, but yeah, it is pretty cute.

And calling Birds of Prey "one of DC's bestsellers" is a bit of an overstatement. I doubt pre-reboot, and post, that Birds ever hit much more than 30,000 units a month. (Pre-reboot it was probably only selling like 10,000). Which means it wasn't flopping, but it also doesn't mean it was a 'best seller'.

YES there are a lot of awesome women characters in comics. It's awesome. But still can we not pretend that the industry (both fans/and creators) loves women?

I'm not getting involved with this cluster fuck (*Sigh* yes I am. of course I am - You're right and applemagpie is... not totally wrong, but she is less right than yourself and stella_down) but you may like to know Jessica Jones is getting one of those netflix minis shows. I am fucking ready for this.

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