[ SECRET POST #2643 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2643 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 075 secrets from Secret Submission Post #378.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

09. http://i.imgur.com/0zl2Vcp.png

[galerian-ash.livejournal.com]

Most people will probably enjoy shipping over "scholarly exploration of the attitudes towards women in Arda", and you can also bet that they won't whine about the latter. You can't just ask people to stop something because it bothers you; you're not the only person in the fandom.

[(Anonymous)]

I know, and that's why I avoid the fandom.
As for "scholarly exploration etc. etc.", I was trying to demonstrate just how prevalent the ship is by throwing out something wildly unrelated.

[tree_and_leaf]

It sucks that a fandom of something you love is full of something that squicks you. That's rubbish, regardless of what the squick is.

However, my inner pedant wants to note that relationships between cousins are not universally considered incestuous.* They are not incest by modern British definitions, for instance (though they might lead to jokes about inbred aristos who only have one chin to go round, or possibly about people from Norfolk, and I'm not arguing that making a habit of having babies with your first cousins is a sensible reproductive strategy, not that applies in this case**).

* And suddenly I'm flashing back to Harry Potter fandom and the Black Family Tree.

** Unless there's tonnes of Silmarillion MPREG fic out there, but I somehow doubt it.

[gondremark]

There's a bit in the Silmarillion, actually, where a Maeglin starts crushing on his first cousin Idril, and she's squicked out because the Noldor do not wed with kin so close (I'm probably remembering the quote wrong, but it was something like that). So I'm going to have to side with OP on this one, within the world of the Elves of the Silmarillion first cousins are incest.

[recessional]

Yeeeah cousins is explicitly incest per the world-rules. Not only was Idril squicked the hell out by Maeglin's attention, as the other commenter pointed out, it was still impossible for him to marry her even if she hadn't been, because Quendi didn't ever marry that close. It's part of Maeglin's bit tragedy.

[(Anonymous)]

Tolkien was British. It isn't incest between cousins in Britain. Or in a lot of other places.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm British and I remember how I learned this. My cousin got me into a load of trouble when I was a kid. My mum beat me for it with a stick.

Then she said, "If you want to marry your cousin, you know, it's entirely legal."

She was such a mindfuck troll.

[(Anonymous)]

Not just British. First cousins can get married in half of all the US states as well (and not the ones with the inbred-hillbilly stereotypes either: it's legal in California, New York, Massachusetts, etc.)

Here's the full list:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-laws-regarding-marriages-between-first-cousi.aspx

[(Anonymous)]

Joining in with other people to say first-cousin relationships aren't necessarily considered incestuous -- although by printed Silmarillion canon, they were considered incestuous by the Noldor!

[(Anonymous)]

Anon above you: That's very true! Though canon isn't big on same-sex relationships either...

[silverr]

That is a lovely piece of art, OP.

dat art tho

[nan]

That's gorgeous art. Does anyone know the artist?

Re: dat art tho

[(Anonymous)]

iirc it's Jenny Dolfen / goldseven

[(Anonymous)]

I can imagine the scandal if their dads found out. I like to think one would be shocked and the other would make a show of being tolerant just to piss the other off. (Fëanor would probably be the tolerant one, purely because "bah Fingolfin's only my half-brother, hardly a real brother at all, etc." Cue Fingolfin's inner puppy eyes.)

[(Anonymous)]

I don't agree with much of this secret but I will commiserate with the popularity of Maedhros/Fingon. I wouldn't mind it if it wasn't so presumptive and pervasive and if the stories themselves were more interesting. It's not hard to scroll past but I do agree that it can get tiring to see it everywhere.

I'm not sure what you're into but have you tried http://www.henneth-annun.net/? There are some pairing stories (and yes quite a few Maedhros/FIngon) but there's a lot of variety and gen stories too. This was where I first found stories that helped me understand the Silmarillion characters through character studies and the exploration of canon. It's where I go in the hopes of finding stories for lesser known characters and I'm not often disappointed.

But if you really can't even stand the sight of "Maedhros/Fingon", then I got nothing for you. I do think it's likely you can find sites that are devoted to canon-compliancy. There's definitely a contingent of Tolkien fans that feel like you do and are really strict about their reading of canon but I've never personally encountered them.

I will say that there are a lot of places where people discuss Tolkien. There are forums and a Society and sites devoted to talking about all aspects of Tolkien that have nothing to do with shipping. I've never found them that hard to find.

[(Anonymous)]

aww OP I feel you, but that's why Eru in his wisdom gave us the backbutton, greatest of the gifts of Arda marred.

no, I mean, I really do understand feeling encroached on sometimes by ships you don't want, but I hope you can find a way not to let it ruin the awesomeness of Silmarillion fandom for you. Sometimes you just have to roll your eyes and move on. Maybe a more meta-focused discussion community would be a good place to hang out for a while -- you can probably get some recommendations here if you don't already know a few.

[(Anonymous)]

Are we talking about the same Silmarillion fandom? The fandom that CONSTANTLY talks about the female characters even though they have just about zero personality in canon, the fandom that's obsessed with scholarly analysis of the different canon sources, literally THE most scholarly fandom I've ever seen anywhere?

Like, I agree that where shipping is concerned, Fingon/Maedhros trumps everything. Which sucks for someone like me, who ships other things and is tired of seeing Fingon/Maedhros everywhere while nobody gives a fuck about any of my ships. But if there's any fandom where you can talk to people without having to ship anything, it's this one. Maybe you just haven't been looking in the right placs? The silmwritersguild? Even tumblr has a bunch of people who are more interested in meta and fanart than in shipping.

[(Anonymous)]

Anecdote of course, but my girlfriend, who's very into Silm fandom and has about a million fanart pictures of Luthien saved on her computer, says that she's never found this ship at all overwhelming or hard to ignore...

[(Anonymous)]

I don't believe you. Do we follow the same Silmarillion fandom? If we're on Tumblr, the main Silm tag is full of material unrelated to shipping, and you'd have to follow a particular pairing or at least the character tags to find shippers. If we're on the SWG, there have always been more gen fics than anything else. Fingon/Maedhros stuff is just easiest to find in relation to other ships, but much of it is itself borderline gen so please, tell me yonder lies this treasure trove of disgusting porn? If you're a shipper of a less popular pairing, I can see the frustration, but if you're telling me you're in the fandom for the women and the lore and meta, there is no way you're running into this barrier because the locations as as well searching mechanism for those materials are completely separate from the shipping stuff, let alone this one pairing.

So join the fandom or don't join, up to you, but stop exaggerating a situation into untruthfulness just to make yourself look better. Here, I'll leave you the link to Dawn Felagund's Heretic Loremaster tag and you take it from there, okay? (http://themidhavens.net/heretic_loremaster/tag/silmarillion/) I can even tell you the names of people who write a lot of Silmarillion meta on Tumblr; some of them ship things I don't like but you know what, I have never found it difficult to sift that aside. Because it isn't.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry, but this secret just seems really whiny. If you don't like something, then skip it - it's silly to moan about other people creating fic/art about something you don't like. Everyone should be free to like what they like, they aren't forcing it on you. I'm in the SPN and MCU fandoms, and I hate incest, and yes, there is a ton of Sam/Dean and Thor/Loki that totally squicks me. So you know what I do? I IGNORE IT. Ship and let ship, people.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

Whelp, I can't say I agree with you, as I mildly support the pairing, but I just got talking to Valandhir about what she thought about pairings for Russandol in Raven's Blade and I agree with her sentiment that in a setting that has him alive and well in the Fourth Age, the Maedhros/Fingon pairing is a bit depressing.

Problem is, I don't yet know any character I would pair with him, barring that one alternate universe idea we had which has even closer incest than Mae/Fin in it (most people around here already know I RP Hobbit/LotR stuff, and may even know I RP the Silmarils as living people who consider themselves sisters to the Sons of Fëanor). We did debate the possibility of paired with Kíli's cousin Fion (son of the brother of Dís's husband - note, in RB, Kíli is actually Thorin's son). This is also the same world where one of Kíli's past lives was in a relationship with Celebrimbor.

What?

[(Anonymous)]

OK, I am a big fan of JRR Tolkien and I read the Silmarillion several times, but I am not in that fandom, so I admit I was not aware that there was any slash shipping going on for any character from that book.

I must admit that I did not see any signs of such a pairing when I read The Silmarillion, which is interesting since I read everything with slash goggles and usually pick up such things very readily!

But what really surprised me in your secret is that you consider cousin relationships incest?! Er... not to blow your mind or anything, but that's not incest. Even relationships between first cousins are not considered incest in most parts of the world.

Maybe it is in your country, but I think it is relevant to the discussion to mention that it isn't in most places.

And if it's incest that turns you off, I find it surprising that you do not mention instead the one canon incest pairing specifically described in The Silmarillion, that of Turin and Nienor, instead of that of a fandom-only pairing?

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry you are unable to enjoy the fandom you prefer OP. Perhaps you can try a03 and deviantart and restrict that pairing in the search. Maybe ask for recs.

[(Anonymous)]

Where are you coming across all this Maedhros/Fingon porn, OP? And can I go there? I'm always lamenting the fact that there isn't more Maedhros/Fingon out there, porn or not. I get that it's a popular pairing, but the Silm fandom in general is the most gen-focused fandom I've ever been in. I see Maedhros/Fingon art, but that's only been since I started following people who ship them; I rarely came across it before. And even then it's almost never explicit. There's porny fic out there, but no one's forcing you to read it, and the majority of fic in the fandom is gen (at least on AO3). If you really can't find anything but Maedhros/Fingon porn when you look for Silmarillion things, you're looking in the wrong places.