[ SECRET POST #2650 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2650 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 062 secrets from Secret Submission Post #379.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Elves can withstand torture but that's not to say that it doesn't harm and debilitate them. Examples from the Silmarillion include Maedhros, who eventually healed but had "the shadow of pain" remaining in him, and Gwindor, who was maimed and never the same again. Both of the above lost the will to live at one point due to the torment. Anyway, the issue here is that if you want to take Laws & Customs at its word on this point, then Celebrian would have died from being raped, because that's what L&C specifically states. But clearly she did not depart for Mandos, so if you maintain that she was raped (it was, indeed, impled) then L&C must have been wrong. You can't have it both way; Celebrian's case doesn't support L&C's claim that Elves always die from rape.

What? Are you serious? "He set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood." --> This is classic entrapment. He saw her wandering, lusted for her, and then used magic to ensure she was lost and alone and vulnerable, and therefore receptive to his advances because he was the only one there to help her. If Aredhel had known this, would she have agreed to marry him? "Underhanded" is really putting it lightly; if you use tricks to basically kidnap someone and make them your spouse, you shouldn't be surprised if readers describe your story as a rape narrative. And to go back to my previous point: in earlier writings, Tolkien did not mince words about it. Eol "took [Aredhel] to wife by force". Even the softening of "not wholly unwilling" doesn't make it okay because what does "not wholly unwilling" even mean?

Given that premise of entrapment, there's already little sympathy I can dredge up for this character, but as for the rules he sets up that she "accepts"... are we not going to examine Aredhel's motives? I can hardly imagine her easily agreeing to never leaving Nan Elmoth and seeking her family, when her very reason for leaving Gondolin was to seek out her kin. The woman who told her brother-king, "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me," now just happily accepts these restrictive commands and has no ill feelings on the matter? That relationship is deeply problematic even if you try to maintain that he didn't technically rape her.

(Plus, people never to remember that Eol never told anyone his spear was poisoned, therefore allowing Aredhel to die even while she was pleading for his life. The one he was trying to kill was Maeglin, but he sure didn't seem to care that Aredhel ended up dead.)

[(Anonymous)]

It harms and debilitates them but they are eventually able to recover, as shown by both your cases. Despite physical healing, Celebrian was not able to recover; her spirit died even if her body was salvaged, therefore yes, Celebrian's case does support L&C's claim that Elves always die from rape.

"Lost and alone and vulnerable" is extremely demeaning and insulting to Aredhel's character. She didn't feel "lost and alone and vulnerable" when she was separated from her companions in Nan Dungortheb, one of the most dangerous regions in Beleriand, and you paint as some witless, hopeless damsel in distress when meeting Eol? And no, that is no rape narrative; the story says that he lead to her to him, not that he kept her captive or that he forced her to bear him a son. He did not kidnap her as she stayed of her own will, neither did he force as she married, stayed and bore him Maeglin of her own will too. I'm a reader too, thank you very much, and it is not a rape narrative to me, period. If Aredhel had known this, would she have agreed to marry him? I don't know, but it doesn't change facts. "Not wholly unwilling" is there to demonstrate this. Earlier writings merely show that Tolkien changed his mind about this, like he did for many other things, and I stand by the version I have.

Your speculations sounds honestly more like projections of your own distaste for a character rather than the examination of a character's feelings to me, especially considering how you disregard her character first only to bring it up again when it's convenient for you. Her reason for leaving Gondolin was that she was bored with it; I do not find it hard to believe that she found Eol's rules about not seeking the Noldor agreeable, as long as she was free to roam by herself as she pleased. Having that freedom is why she left Gondolin in the first place.

As I said, Eol is a tragic character. He didn't care if he himself ended up dead. I see his relationship with his wife and son as tragic, not problematic; problematic is a stupid word in this context and you using it shows how much it's lost any meaning whatsoever.