Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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fandomsecrets2014-04-18 07:35 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2014-04-18 07:35 pm
[ SECRET POST #2663 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2663 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[Stardust]
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03. [posted twice]
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04.
[Elementary]
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05.
[El Goonish Shive]
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07. http://i62.tinypic.com/29cxt2a.jpg
[Hadaka Shitsuji, censored porn]
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08. http://i.imgur.com/XGwxaCR.jpg
[cosplay; no sex but definitely nsfw]
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12. [ns]
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16.
[Art by: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Lets-Sing-Together-338248375]
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17. [SPOILERS for Soul Eater]
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18. [SPOILERS for captain america: the winter soldier]
[WARNING for rape]
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19. [WARNING for suicide]
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20. [WARNING for incest, possible non-con]
Notes:
Late at work again, sorry. Should be back to normal by next week!
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #380.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Fridging, and how not to do it
I had originally planned for his wife to be killed.
In this world, there is life after death. If, when you die, you resist the pull of the afterlife and strive to remain in the world of the living, then you become a "restless" spirit and feed upon the living. My main character is driven mad by the thought that he should tempt someone into becoming such a spirit so that he won't have to be parted from them. I was disturbed when I learned that killing his wife would fall into a pretty negative trope, and so I've been trying to change things, but he's a guy who usually connects to women, so it's difficult (yeah, yeah, I could genderswap someone, but at this point, that wouldn't feel right for his character).
I might just be overthinking this, but is there a way to kill a female character in the service of a male character's development such that it isn't fridging?
Maybe the real question is: should I even care? I know what I'm doing and I know that my motivations are not sexist, and I refuse to believe that female characters should not drive plot.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 02:30 am (UTC)(link)I guess you could make it less fridge-y if you gave the death greater importance to the plot (beyond acting as a catalyst for his character development).
also you can make it less fridge-y if you develop the character of the wife. (added bonus! if you develop her character, and their relationship, then it gives even more of an emotional impact when she dies.)
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 02:32 am (UTC)(link)can you think of any other catalysts that might drive him mad?
usually with breakdowns IRL it's not just one thing... it's lots and lots of little things, adding up over time, and then the big event happens which drives him over the edge.
so you can maybe think of other stressors in his life which would add to the story.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Her death would have greater importance to the plot, as his descent drives the latter two thirds of the story. It's not only about his development, and I apologize for not making that more clear. If he doesn't go mad, then a good deal of the story is not possible.
I have worked on developing her character and making sure that she is fully fleshed out. As time has gone on, however, I've questioned my decision to kill her and instead thought that it might be better to kill someone else that he cares about. This person would also be a woman, which bothers me, but killing her instead would allow me to continue the story of his wife.
Also, with the way I've set it up, it definitely is a case of multiple stressors conspiring to pull him down. The first third of the story involves him trying to deal with new responsibilities and with the fact that his job requires him to lie to his spouse; he cycles through guilt, shame, and despair, and the fact that he does so is part of why he winds up breaking.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 02:37 am (UTC)(link)Personally, I think anytime you create a character solely to die for another character's pain and motivation, it's fridging, if that helps.
I also don't think that fridging would have anywhere near the negative connotations that it has if it weren't so overdone. So many male characters have dead women in their closets as the be all and end all of why they do things that it's pretty stale and obnoxious and no longer emotionally resonates with a lot of people.
That said, it sounds like you're writing a horror story, and that this event happens near the beginning? It also sounds like SOMEONE has to die for the plot to happen at all. While you could switch it around, and have like...a kid going insane because they're worried their parent is going to stick around, I can see how that would be difficult.
(Also, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt about being a troll, even though that "female characters should not drive plot" line is taunting me. The situation you describe is not a female character driving plot.)
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
It's a really difficult thing, because I need something that sends him over the edge, but I don't think that there's anyway to do that beyond killing someone who's close to him (particularly given the way the world works. When you die, if you refuse to pass on, then you remain in the world of the living and feed off of them. Part of why he goes mad is because he thinks to tempt someone into refusing to pass on). So far, what I've done is further develop his wife and make it so that she's not the one who dies, but I feel iffy about that because his main contacts are women, and so killing someone whose close to him would still involve killing a woman.
I guess the real question is: are there some instances where fridging actually works and is okay?
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 04:17 am (UTC)(link)Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 02:50 am (UTC)(link)I'd recommend making sure your story passes the Bechdel test - make the female interact with other female characters not about men, and even have more developed female characters that don't die. Having female presence definitely, I think, reduces the sexist criticism of the "fridging" trope.
Maybe you could also have the female character in question have her own goals, have her directly affect the plot or at least some outcome in her own life, even if she does die. Try not to make her a "placeholder" female character. Give her personality, flaws, strengths, and so on. Develop her as though she isn't going to die.
Then, have the protagonist think about her more than himself. That seems obvious, but I think some of the "fridging" complaints are when male characters take a tragedy and make it all about them and their own feelings. Who else is affected by the female character's death? Etc.
But ultimately? Just write the story how you like. I think it's impossible to write a story that doesn't fall for some trope or other, and that's okay. To me, fridging isn't about the act itself but more about a trend, tied with a real societal problem. So if you feel confident that your writing isn't sexist, and you aren't sexist, just do what you like. Haters will hate, and most people probably have never heard of the trope in the first place.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
To be honest, I think this is actually the biggest issue--when the death or suffering of a female character is approached ENTIRELY in terms of her love interest's loss. Give him some affection for her as a character, not as a possession or an appendage, and you'll have avoided the worst of it.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
DA
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 03:34 am (UTC)(link)Re: DA
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
What you've suggested has been my approach. I've thought of ways to flesh her out and to strengthen her ties to the community. But I can't help but worry that that won't be enough. I also have a part of me that now wants her to live, and wants to kill someone else who's close to him, instead. But the problem there is that he's...mostly close to women, and my sense of his character is such that it wouldn't feel right to genderswap any of them.
(I should add that, if anyone is killed, he absolutely is going to feel for them as them. Much of what he goes through after his descent revolves around him struggling to feel outside of himself. I've thought of the moments where he can conceptualize what has happened as not being about him as being the most poignant and the most revealing when it comes to his madness. Part of why he is crazy is because he has lost true empathy).
In any case, it really is less about him (apart from it driving him mad) and more about what it means for the world overall and for the characters who have to stop what's happening. That has the feel of just shifting things, however. I wonder if it might just be better for me to think of some other way for him to lose it.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
The struggle for me is learning how to negotiate the line between trope and storytelling that happens to share some similarities with trope. I don't think anyone can get away from trope entirely (humans have been telling and writing stories for too long), but I think there are both bad and good ways to handle it.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
But I'm not everyone. I'm just as sick of zombies, and that shit sure still sells hand over fist.
So, what can you do that would ameliorate it? Like people have been saying, don't make her sole purpose to be the object of his man pain. For example, back in the day I read X1999. There was a character who existed pretty much solely to be fridged. She was literally an innocent sacrificial virgin. She had no personality but sobbing and looking sweet and eventually dying.
That was in the manga. In the anime, they actually characterized her. They told us what her hopes and dreams were. She did things on her own that did not involve the main character. Showed her working towards her intended future profession. And I felt about 1000 times more moved when that character died than when the manga version did. What does his wife want to do with her life? What can she do that involves that rest of the plot other than dying? Who are her friends and the people who love her besides her husband? Who does he love, besides her?
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
I've got an alternative plan where she lives and winds up working with the other protagonist, but even then, someone still has to die. The nature of the world is such that death and madness go hand in hand.
As I said to someone above, I may just be overthinking things. If the character who dies is well-rounded, and there are strong female characters who live, then I've probably done as well as can be expected.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Wracking my brains for a solution to your dilemma, since you say that this characters primary relationships are with women, just about the only female relation whose death/capture hasn't be absolutely done to death is probably a protagonist's mother. I've seen it before, but nowhere near as often as I have wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister (in order of descending banality). Especially an older protagonist (i.e. not a child or a teenager). I've literally never seen it with a man over 20. Which says problematic things in and of itself (that women aren't worth getting worked up over after a certain age, perhaps) so you could subvert the trope slightly if you tried that out.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Thank you all!
<3
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
No, not if that's the only reason why you're doing it, IMO. All your comments in the thread so far suggest that the sole point of her death is to drive this guy crazy; you talk about his character and his feelings and his thoughts, and just sort of vaguely mention the wife and the best way to use her or someone in her place. Like, is there anything more to it than that? Why does she die? What does she die of? Does she die for a reason - to save someone's life, because she was silenced for interfering with someone else's plans, because she was driven to madness herself and committed suicide? Is there anything about her death that is about her, what she felt, things she did, mistakes she made?
As a reader, I wonder about these things. This kind of stuff is not really about gender so much as characterization, but the reason fridging is associated with women more is because the lack of personality and motivation is much more common with female characters than male. It can happen with male characters, too - the protag of Avatar's twin brother is killed as a plot device and he is literally never mentioned again, it was so stupid - so just changing the gender or relation of the person you kill to make the protagonist nuts won't help if the characterization isn't there.
Just my two...okay, twenty cents.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
About a third of the way through the book, there is...an explosion, for lack of a better term (it's magical in nature; there's a group experimenting with combinations of Powers, and something goes very wrong). Elareyn's business was to have been in one of the impacted buildings.
Prior to the explosion, she and Kija were going to have been having problems. He has a job that is central to the community, but it requires a good deal of secrecy, and its nature is also such that it leaves him open to the sort of madness that ultimately takes him. Elareyn knows from the start there are things that he won't be able to tell or share with her, but it proves much harder to deal with than she'd thought it would be. She watches him retreat into himself and can do nothing about it, because he doesn't know how to go about talking to her without revealing information that he's bound to keep secret. She is at the point where she's wondering whether it's still worth it to try; she's given what she's able, and she hasn't gotten much of anything in return.
I still want to develop their relationship in that way. But after getting everyone's feedback and thinking through things a bit more, I think that it might be better for me to use the explosion as the catalyst for Kija's descent without actually killing someone close to him. Originally, he was going to have a terrible moment where he wanted to tempt the dead individual into becoming neislo, a spirit that has refused to pass on. It's this thought that leaves him "open" to being broken. I think I can convey something similar without having to kill either Elareyn or any other named character.
And if Elareyn lives, then I can use my alternate plan: after Kija loses it, she winds up helping and working alongside Davera (who is my other principal protagonist. Her story is honestly the more tragic one to me; while she doesn't lose her mind, she's forced to do something terrible toward the end of the story, and her entire worldview is shattered). That way, I can expand and further explore her story.
I appreciate your feedback like you wouldn't believe. It was really helpful to go through the questions that you asked and make sure that I had answers for them. So, thank you very much!
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 06:09 am (UTC)(link)But in and of itself? It's not a problem and you shouldn't be worried.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 02:51 pm (UTC)(link)Saying that, you, as an author know better what you and you audience want to see in the book.
btw, another overused trop is parents' murder.
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
Thanks for your input!
Re: Fridging, and how not to do it
(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)