fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2676 ]

[ SECRET POST #2676 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2676 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 019 secrets from Secret Submission Post #382.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I can't speak for 50 Shades because I haven't read it, but I really, really dislike the "person ignores their lover's protests because they know they really want it" trope. Not because I dislike rape fantasies - that's actually one of my kinks. It's because so often the writing (or art etc in comics) doesn't make it clear that the person *actually wants it.* It always makes me rage at the aggressor, "They said no! There's nothing in the text/the art showing that they don't mean no! What the fuck makes you think you know what they want better than they do? Rrrrrrrrrghghghggh."

I'm sorry, this is a massive hot button issue for me. I've had to backbutton out of many a fic and go watch kitten videos to stop myself from leaving unwarranted reviews.

This. Why can't these so-called fantasies ever get the whole "my lips say no but my body says yes" thing right? Can't they at least have the protesting partner flash a come-hither look or a coy smile or any damn thing to show that this is a sexy controlled situation and not one that looks identical in every way to real assaults?

Maybe because that's actually a kink for some people?

Like, I can understand if you don't like it, but there are plenty of women who DO have a thing for rape fantasies where one of the participants doesn't want it, or where they don't want it in the beginning but come to enjoy it.

It's not an uncommon kink at all.

Right, not giving a rat's arse about how eeeevil kinkshaming is, but that comes right from a place of deep misogyny and sad self-loathing. Own your desires people, instead of having to pretend you were forced in order to enjoy the "dirty" sex as a "pure" woman - because that's where it comes from.

I love it when feminists play the "internalized misogyny" card because they can't accept what's hot to other women isn't hot to them.

sup radfem

No, that's actually not where it comes from, idiot.

It is most definitely a kink for many -- the issue here isn't that people like it, but that so many works go to great lengths to convince audience after the fact that an encounter really wasn't rape, but did nothing to make it look like anything but. Maybe if the characters would just acknowledge it was an assault? It's still fine and fictional. Otherwise, show your work and make this "they really wanted it" bit clearer.

The fact that there's no aftermath is enough for any sensible person to understand the encounter wasn't an assault.

But when the characters do that people just label it stockholm syndrome because they can't accept a fantasy that's not theirs.

That would defeat the whole point of the fantasy.

Why should they have to do that? It's fantasy. They're writing it the way they want for people who will read it and enjoy it that way. They're under no obligation to make it more "realistic" just to satisfy you because the entire point is that it's fantasy and isn't reality.

You sound like you're trying to police other people's fantasies here.

From reading recaps with text posted, not only is there no making it clear she actually wants it, there's a whole lot of how much she hates it and how bad it makes her feel and how much she just wants it to be over. Like it's really, really dark.

I think because the ending is that when he falls in love with her it 'cures' him of his need to hurt and rape her and they have happy vanilla sex that they both enjoy, but I've just heard that part second hand, haven't actually read excerpts.

This. (I haven't read it either but, from the excerpts) the ambiguity is because the author knew the endgame -- he falls 'in love' -- and she needed to show 'conflict', LOL, and she wasn't a good enough writer to show how characters behave when love isn't a foregone conclusion but the characters have feelings that make falling in love plausible. But then it was fan fiction. She needed a decent beta. And the publishers should have edited it. But I imagine they were as baffled by its popularity as we are, and didn't want to change what they didn't understand and risk losing zillions of sales.

None of that explains why such a mess is popular, except that thousands of romance novels have conditioned readers to assume that the characters will 'fall in love' at the end, despite the fact that the male character always behaves like an arsehole until the last page, so most readers knew as well as the author did what the endgame was, and ignored/enjoyed the dodgy behaviour because it was part of the genre.

Falling in love doesn't need to be plausible, though. People in real life fall in love for reasons others cannot understand, yet they do.

SA

Love can be inexplicable to onlookers but we are inside Anastasia's head, we know what she's thinking, and what she's thinking doesn't, IMO -- putting myself into the scenario and testing my own emotions -- follow a convincing pattern.

That's you, though. To others, and to Anastasia, it was definitely convincing.

Err... What was convincing? I'm not sure what we're arguing any more. I'm not saying that a person in her position wouldn't have conflicting emotions, I'm saying that the emotions are poorly written.

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(Anonymous) - 2014-05-03 05:12 (UTC) - Expand

>the male character always behaves like an arsehole until the last page

Subjective. I haven't read 50 shades but I've read plenty other works where a character was accused of being an asshole when they came across as a perfectly good person to me.

DA

What works?

In nearly all yaoi the S (sadist) type seme is just a jerk with a heart of gold who cares a lot for his uke, ensures their safety and well-being, reassures their uke of how good they are when they get truly doubtful of themselves, and gives them lots of amazing sex that the uke loves in spite of protests. People who call that cruel have no idea what cruelty is.

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SA

I was talking Mills & Boon. It's ages since I read any, but all the men were pretty much the strong, silent, arsehole type, though there was no sex, so they weren't sadists.

If they had been sadists, they would have been very mild ones.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2014-05-02 16:49 (UTC) - Expand

Oh, he treats me with respect, he says he loves me all the time
He calls me fifteen times a day, he likes to make sure that I'm fine
You know I've never met a man who's made me feel quite so secure
He's not like all them other boys, they're all so dumb and immature

There's just one thing that's getting in the way
When we go up to bed, you're just no good, it's such a shame
I look into your eyes, I want to get to know you
And then you make this noise and it's apparent it's all over

It's not fair and I think you're really mean
I think you're really mean, I think you're really mean
Oh, you're suppose to care
But you never make me scream, you never make me scream

Oh, it's not fair and it's really not okay
It's really not okay, it's really not okay
Oh, you're supposed to care
But all you do is take, yeah, all you do is take

Oh, I lie here in the wet patch in the middle of the bed
I'm feeling pretty damn hard done by, I spent ages giving head
Then I remember all the nice things that you ever said to me
Maybe I'm just overreacting, maybe you're the one for me

There's just one thing that's getting in the way
When we go up to bed, you're just no good, it's such a shame
I look into your eyes, I want to get to know you
And then you make this noise and it's apparent it's all over

It's not fair and I think you're really mean
I think you're really mean, I think you're really mean
Oh, you're supposed to care
But you never make me scream, you never make me scream

Oh, it's not fair and it's really not okay
It's really not okay, it's really not okay
Oh, you're supposed to care
But all you do is take, yeah, all you do is take

There's just one thing that's getting in the way
When we go up to bed, you're just no good, it's such a shame
I look into your eyes, I want to get to know you
And then you make this noise and it's apparent, it's all over

It's not fair and I think you're really mean
I think you're really mean, I think you're really mean
Oh, you're supposed to care
But you never make me scream, you never make me scream

Oh, it's not fair and it's really not okay
It's really not okay, it's really not okay
Oh, you're supposed to care
But all you do is take, yeah, all you do is take

Done well, the fantasy there is that your lover knows you so well that they know what you truly want regardless of what you're saying. For me it's a huge kink because I don't trust or open up easily so for someone to know me that well (better than I know myself even) means I would have enormous trust in them to let them in that close. Same thing regarding someone who would push me to do something they know I would love.

It's a fantasy, not real life. IRL these things take a lot of prior communication, honesty, trust and thorough negotiations. In fantasy? Just like I don't really care to read about how a character bleaches their sheets after the act, I may not care about the setup that such a scene would require. In fantasy, lovers don't have to go through all the tedious stuff real people do. In fantasy, what we spent a lot of time and effort on can just come naturally, with no preparation and still have a fantastic outcome. That's the whole point of fantasy.

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