[ SECRET POST #324 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #324 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 210 secrets from Secret Submission Post #047.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 ] not!secrets, 0 not!fandom.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, November 26th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[enfeebledchi.livejournal.com]

14 - Cameron is a great character. I hate that she gets such bad treatment from my fellow House/Wilson lovers.

House is the most obnoxious dick in the world, but nobody gives him crap for it because he has such CHARM. Wilson sleeps around SO MUCH, has been married several times, and is an admitted cheater but nobody calls him "whorish." Chase is an annoying ass kisser, but he's CUTE, so we could never say that about him. Even Foreman is a manipulative jerk.

Cameron has proved herself to be an adorably imperfect female character. She's not a whore because she breaks up your favorite slash pairing. She's not smug because she's able to be right just as much as everyone else in the show. She's kindhearted and understanding, displays concern for others, has insecurities like any other woman, has crushes like any other person in the world, and has gone out of her way to help other characters on the show.

You don't have to like House/Cameron to like Cameron. Come on.

Also, she is absolutely beautiful. I don't know how you can say that about her when your secret is posted on such a lovely photo of her.

[quasiadastra.livejournal.com]

You took the words right out of my mouth. <3

Cameron isn't my favourite character, but that's becase I don't feel the writers of the have really done her any justice. Seriously, she could be so much more than she is.

[penguinfaery.livejournal.com]

Didn't you just sorta prove their point about people being hostile and all?

I don't particularly like Cameron (I don't hate her either, I don't actually care enough) but them saying "I don't like her" and you giving a mini essay (with pictures!) about how great she is, assumptions about why they said what they did and all, certainly turned me off another degree.

[enfeebledchi.livejournal.com]

I will admit that I am hostile towards Cameron haters.

[penguinfaery.livejournal.com]

Then you ttly made their point.

[enfeebledchi.livejournal.com]

Yes, I made their point that Cameron fans are hostile. (Maybe because both Huddy and H/W shippers insult her at every opportunity?)

But they also say she is a bad character and ugly. Not true.

[penguinfaery.livejournal.com]

Ugly is a subjective thing, so it can't be true or false.

And they didn't say she was a BAD character, they said she was a character they didn't like. There's a difference.

[kinneas.livejournal.com]

I don't see any real hostility here, just polite dissent.

[penguinfaery.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I think three paragraphs and a picture collage goes past polite dissent into, maybe not hostility but assuredly past what I'd consider normal, polite disagreeing.

[kinneas.livejournal.com]

Except presenting an argument =\= having an argument despite nomenclature.

[penguinfaery.livejournal.com]

Presenting an argument seems a lot less confrontational then what she posted, in this setting and context.

Since even she admitted she was feeling hostile, I don't quiet see what you're getting at.

[kinneas.livejournal.com]

Only that I see no hostility coming from her at all. No passage in her argument contained any direct or indirect insult or even hint of rudeness =\

Then again, 50% of LJ fandom seems overly meek compared to the rest of internet (while the other 50% scares the piss out of me).

[penguinfaery.livejournal.com]

I don't think it was so much that what she said was rude so much as pointedly overkill. Like...for example, if you're friend said they hated pink, and the next week you showed up wearing nothing but pink, as oppose to just being like "Oh, I do."

[kinneas.livejournal.com]

I... don't find that comparable at all, because she basically said, "I do" with an explanation because characters are far more complex than colors and deserve such, then posted a few unobtrusive icons as a backup for her own subjective, "She's pretty" bit.

pssst *your friend ;)

[penguinfaery.livejournal.com]

Yes, but the OP of the secret, being in fandom, one can easily assume, has already heard most of those arguments (As nothing she said was news to ME and I'm not in the fandom) and we can probably assume KNOWS what she looks like. It wasn't even like she dug up some uncommon picture of her or something that was different from what the OP would have seen. Her "I do" was three paragraphs long, with what...10 pictures? I call that overkill. And intentional overkill, as she's had her feathers ruffled by one to many Cameron hater. (Which, given most fandoms, is probably a valid frustration, but I still don't think what she did was a great way to deal with it)

And since the OP of the comment admitted she was being hostile, despite you not seeing it, it obviously was there. Maybe it's just a type of hostility I'm use to seeing and you're not or something.

[parron.livejournal.com]

I--butting in!--agree with penguinfaery, I think. It's not difficult to say, "I disagree, I like Cameron." And it's not wrong to use several paragraphs to explain your opinion, either (else I'd be in trouble too, haha). The problem is in her tone, I think. enfeebledchi listed various subjective things she likes about Cameron ("adorably imperfect", etc.), while listing things the flaws of the other characters (with sarcastic commentary). She also decides that the OP must dislike Cameron because she's in the way of House/Wilson slash, which... I don't remember seeing in the secret (the secret said that they didn't ship the pairing, in fact).

It's not that she's not allowed to post a defense of a character--far from it! It's just the tone she took--self righteous to a degree and overly defensive. Cameron is at least as flawed as the rest of the cast, yet in the defense comment, enfeebledchi glossed over Cameron's flaws and only highlighted those of the people around her. All of it together, to me, leads to a rather hostile, petty sounding comment... It's difficult for me to find the words to explain clearly what I mean, but I hope you get the gist, at least...?

ETA: ah, spelling, love of my life.

[kinneas.livejournal.com]

No, I agree that she was being defensive, but hostility is aggression, and I don't see any of that here.

I think it's not so much that I'm not seeing it as I am used to real hostility on a much different style of forum (eg, Encyclopedia Dramatica etc).

[parron.livejournal.com]

It was just the tone on top of the defensive -- she was defensive, and automatically made assumptions about the OP (that he/she was a slash fan or a house/cuddy fan, that he/she was thick for not realizing the pretty of Cameron, and in the above comment thread, that Cameron fans were only hostile because House/Wilson and House/Cuddy fans insult Cameron all the time, blah blah). I guess she wasn't outright aggressive, but to me, there was a definite unfriendly edge to the whole thing. Like, "look how special and wonderful Cameron is, you guys are such idiots for not noticing, I'm only hostile because you drive me to it." Is that passive-aggressive, maybe...?

I don't mean to sound like I don't speak English. Eeesh.

[parron.livejournal.com]

....I wouldn't say she's absolutely beautiful in those icons--over saturation much? o___o Oy.

Anyway. Time for some tl;dr. I don't like Cameron. I also don't ship anyone in House, so, let's just get that clear off the bat. The reason I don't like her is this: She is seriously flawed. So is everyone in House, as you pointed out. The difference is, Foreman knows he's an asshole, and feels badly about it to a degree, and tries to change himself. House is the biggest asshole known to man, but no one actually likes him (except Wilson, and even then half the time...). House also doesn't like himself. And so on. The other characters, ridiculously flawed as they are all realize their flaws and in some cases, try to change them or at least feel guilty about them (i.e: House and his phantom pains).

Cameron does NOT realize she has flaws, or not to the degree that she should. For example, she does know that she's bad at breaking bad news to patients. However, she doesn't do anything about it--she ridiculously hides information from one (the cancer girl in Acceptance), and relies on Wilson in another episode (Maternity). Her relationship with House passed the line from "crush" to "disturbing" a long time ago, starting with "Love Hurts." Her kindness is fairly conditional -- she's downright petty with Chase and Foreman at times (I'm thinking especially of Lines in the Sand, where she outright mocks Chase's father issues with no prompting/reason). Yet she's presented to us as "nice" and "the kindest cottage" and other BS. Also, some of the stuff she gets away with just pisses me off--she more than once refuses to work just because she has Moral Qualms or because she has something else she wants to do--like sulk about the patient who was omg mean to babies, or refuse to help another patient because she's too busy bonding with a girl who has cancer but doesn't know because Cameron won't tell her. She also meddles with House to a ridiculous extent, the carpet issues in Lines in the Sand coming to mind first (honestly, I don't understand how she hasn't been fired for those things, other than the fact that House himself also still has a job).

I don't mind flawed characters. I do mind flawed characters that think their flaws are strengths and never learn or change or grow or even just accept the fact that they are assholes and not omg perfect. Cameron is just that--a ridiculously flawed character whose flaws are paraded to us as signs that we should adore her.

EDIT: spelling lolz.

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

It's fine that you dislike Cameron, but just like enfeebledchi, you're presenting your subjective opinions about Cameron as facts about her character.

Cameron is just that--a ridiculously flawed character whose flaws are paraded to us as signs that we should adore her.

You may see this as a fact, but I have never thought that Cameron's emotional neediness, self-righteousness, inconsistent ideals, and difficulty having healthy relationships with, um, anybody (even her patients) were "paraded to us as signs that we should adore her." To me, they seemed to be flaws as clear as Chase's authority issues and House's cruelty.

It's true that other shows often present us with a character like Cameron to be the emotional and moral "heart" of the show, but that's no reason to assume that House, a show notorious for intentionally flawed character, intends to do the same thing with Cameron.

Also:

For example, she does know that she's bad at breaking bad news to patients. However, she doesn't do anything about it...

Your examples are both drawn for the first or early second season. Cameron seems to have overcome this particular flaw by the middle of the third season at the latest, where she has no problem telling a terminal patient that he has the same type of cancer as her patient in "Acceptance." I thought that was intended to show us that she had dealt with that particular issue.

Personally, I love Cameron; I think the particular nature of her trouble relating to people is very interesting and I love seeing the moments when she manages to break through it and be sane, competent, and together. I also think the show treats her fairly. For example, sure, she blackmails House into a date because she's desperate to have a Happy Fun Healing Relationship, but she doesn't get rewarded for it. It does not turn out the way she wants, and she winds up miserable and humiliated.

But not everyone is going to like her. I know that. I just dislike the double standard that's often applied to her, sometimes because of gender issues, sometimes, more understandably, because of bad experiences in other fandoms ("oh, no, not another sweet and kind female who turns out to be the Heart Of The Show...wait, and this one's a total bitch, too! Grrr!"), and sometimes for shipping reasons (Cameron seems to be rather furiously reviled by both House/Wilson and House/Cuddy fans).

not OP

[(Anonymous)]

Chase is an annoying ass kisser, but he's CUTE, so we could never say that about him.
I don't know what rock you've been hiding under, but EVERYONE hates on Chase for being a weasley little backstabber back in the day.

Also, she is absolutely beautiful. I don't know how you can say that about her when your secret is posted on such a lovely photo of her.
Double-standards FTL. Honestly, even if this didn't clash with the previous complaint about Chase, I'd think that would be one of the most shallow comments I've seen posted here. She's beautiful, and how can people say they don't like her and put it on such a lovely photo? How does that even make sense? Her being pretty is something to do with the actress. I know nothing about the actress. Her pissing me off is something to do with the character. Nothing to do with appearance, everything to do with her being annoying and shallow.

Yes. Shallow. She seems kindhearted and understanding, just like Chase seems like he'll always be a backstabbing weasel. But as the show progressed, both characters became more complex. In Cameron's case, she showed that the "kindheartedness" is contrasted by a childishness and a sense of self-destructive rebellion, including disregard for the wellbeing of others (seducing Chase when she thought she had HIV?). I'll admit she's a complex, well-rounded character. But she's the kind of person I can't stand.

Re: not OP

[(Anonymous)]

Yo, just popping in here because I'm just wondering how you figure that Cameron seduced Chase. All she did was get high and came on to him. If Chase had wanted to push her away, he could have. This does not count as seduce.

Re: not OP

[(Anonymous)]

... pretend that contains less spelling mistakes.

[daluci.livejournal.com]

Hey, be nice to teh Wilson. :D [/idiot]

In any case... I don't like the way the writers have dealt with her. She lost a lot of her appeal.... ugh, I should know dates and don't. Second/third season. She became just The Female and went flat character-wise. That always bugged me. Of late I'll admit that she's coming back -- and most of my dislike is centered around the fact that she's elbowing in on Wilson's territory (shh, I know I'm ridiculous). My dislike has always been centered on the writers for taking away the fire from what could have been a spectacular character, with a side note that I don't like the way they're portraying her. .../swt Sorry for the ramble.

Also, the fourth icon? Is so... her. I love it.