[ SECRET POST #2699 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2699 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


__________________________________________________



02.


__________________________________________________



03.


__________________________________________________



04.


__________________________________________________



05.


__________________________________________________



06.


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.


__________________________________________________



09.


__________________________________________________



10.


__________________________________________________



11.


__________________________________________________



12.


__________________________________________________



13.


__________________________________________________



14.


__________________________________________________



15.


__________________________________________________



16.










Notes:

Bit early today, sorry!

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 116 secrets from Secret Submission Post #386.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

09. http://i.imgur.com/a8RCwaP.jpg

[visp]

I never saw it as pro or anti feminist. Just sort of existing. I suppose it's vaguely feminist in that it recognizes that women exist, and exist as people in their own right, with agency, opinions, flaws, and all... but it's a product of the times, and in those times, women pretty much had to get married.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree but this ending is still the reason S&S is my least favorite of Austen's works.

[(Anonymous)]

Isn't that satire?

[(Anonymous)]

Okay. You're wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

That whole plot is so creepy. Sure, Miss Austen. What would be better for a teenager than to marry a middle aged dude who is obsessed with her because she looks like his dead ex?

[(Anonymous)]

35 years old is middle aged now? LOL...

[(Anonymous)]

I depends. Did the average XVIII century person live to much older than 70?

[diet_poison]

To a teenager? Yes.

[(Anonymous)]

It likely would have been back in Austen's time. People often didn't live long bast age 50 in that era.

[replicantangel]

It's been awhile since I've read the book, but I'm 95% sure he says that Marianne reminds him of his former love in spirit. Not necessarily in looks. People tend to be attracted to a type, and his type is obviously the joyful and uninhibited kind of person Marianne is.

The plot is really more about Marianne becoming an adult. And women her age *often* married men his age in those days - especially military men had to establish their fortune and rank before marrying and living the life of a gentleman.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you. I don't think most people in this thread are very familiar with the historical period.

What specifically do you find anti-feminist that isn't mitigated by the time period, OP?

[(Anonymous)]

Genuinely curious.

[replicantangel]

Isn't feminism supposed to be about being considered equal in capabilities in men and being able to make their own choices?

Both women are happy in the end and want each other to be happy. Their husbands respect them and value them for who they are. In fact, the two couples marry in spite of some serious social issues regarding money and land (namely, Elinor and Marianne have none). No, they're not going out and becoming barristers, but that wasn't exactly feasible at the time.

Austen's work is usually a commentary on social structure more than gender politics, although to think she wasn't *acutely* aware of the unfairness women faced (especially if not married) is ridiculous. You only need look at her "old maid" type characters for that.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure I'd call it anti-feminist -- Marianne's perspective and priorities aren't devalued because she's female. A male with similar romanticism would be treated similarly.

But it does devalue Marianne's perspective and priorities. My sister dislikes S&S because, she says, it's all about how Sense is best and it's bad making emotional decisions.

[(Anonymous)]

Marianne's decisions were wholly emotional, though, and that is bad. She behaved with no thought of her safety and reputation, or her family's reputation. That doesn't sound like a big deal to a modern audience, but at the time Marianne's ruined reputation could've easily made her family into social outcasts (a bad idea when they're relying upon the generosity of a distant cousin for their home) and her sisters would've found it that much harder to make decent marriages-- the only way for them to ensure their futures.

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's a common enough opinion that Marianne/Colonel Brandon has a horrible ending. He's like Marianne's punishment for having dared to be different to the rest of society for a little while.

I'm not sure it's anti-feminist of Austen. More like bad writing, with a kind of pair-the-spares vibe to it. They really don't convince.

I feel the same way about Fanny/Edumnd in Mansfield Park. Fanny reads as a character that Austen thought she should write rather than one she actually enjoyed writing. Mary got all the best lines. Edmund would have been so much happier with her. Again, this is a common enough opinion. Disliking Fanny isn't a feminist statement. Fanny is just annoying, and brings out the worst in Edmund.

I think the fact that both these terrible relationships are so unconvincing says a lot about Austen's real actual love for her female characters.

[(Anonymous)]

I think Austen is on record as saying Fanny is 'much too good for her'. I think she rather disliked Fanny in the end.

[(Anonymous)]

What "common knowledge" are you referring to because no one I know/have run into thinks that about Marianne/Colonel Brandon

[(Anonymous)]

A rich husband who loves AND respects you, who you come to love and respect because he's an honorable person who treats you (and everyone else he deals with) well is a pretty terrible punishment, I guess?

[(Anonymous)]

Uhhh, all it is really saying is that she grew the fuck up a bit and realizing that Brandon was all the things she actually wanted and that the perfect romantic partner didn't come in perfect handsome young packages.

And I think you are also mistaking Austen's opinion with the opinion of friend of Brandon's. And you are also expecting modern feminist ideas out of a rather old book. Not inline with current feminist opinion =/= anti-feminist.

[(Anonymous)]

She didn't need to grow up and she didn't want him. She just settled. It probably kills her inside.

I think the problem is Austen is held up as this great female women's views writer, and she's not. After doing my MA in Victorian lit, she's not even that good a writer IMO.

[(Anonymous)]

You have taken away from those passages exactly what Austen wanted you to take away from them - Marianne doesn't get to marry for love, she gets to marry out of a sense of obligation and because it's what everyone else wants. Just because the traditional happy ending of a romance is "woman marries right man" doesn't mean "she married him, so he must be the right man".

You have to be really careful with Austen not to take things at face value. The statement that Marianne becomes as devoted to Colonel Brandon as she had once been to Willoughby has to be read in the knowledge that Willoughby was a piece of shit.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow. You are an idiot. That isn't what Austen wanted you to take out of that at all. ALL Austen's heroines marry for love. She SAYS THAT IN HER LETTERS YOU IDIOT.

[krait]

Much as I love Austen's works in general, S&S is the one that gives me the most Values Dissonance -- I spend the whole thing fruitlessly waiting for Colonel Moron to realise that there's an incredibly marriageable, smart, insightful, thoughtful woman right in front of him... but no, apparently he really gets his jollies from the idea of marrying someone who's something between a doll and a child. *squickface*

Gimme Pride & Prejudice or Mansfield Park over that, any day.