fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2710 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2710 ⌋

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QUESTIONS

1. In Book 4, Ch. VI, Pierre is musing about his wife's character; in the Maude translation on Project Gutenberg, he thinks, "How often when considering her character I have told myself that I was to blame for not understanding her, for not understanding that constant composure and complacency and lack of all interests or desires, and the whole secret lies in the terrible truth that she is a depraved woman." In the Constance Garnett translation, it's "a dissolute woman." These are the only translations I have to refer to right now. Do you know what the adjective is in the original Russian (or French?) and if the original has the connotations of dissolving / looseness / coming apart that the English "dissolute" has, or if it's closer in meaning to the English word "depraved"?

2. In the same chapter, a couple of paragraphs down, Pierre recalls the "vulgar expressions" that his wife uses habitually. In the Maude they're rendered, "I'm not such a fool.... Just you try it on.... Allez-vous promener."

Are the first two expressions Russian in the original? If so, what are they in Russian?

Thanks to anyone who can help me out! (if not, that's ok)

You forgot to write which part of book 4 you mean. I remember there were parts.

It's Book Four: 1806, Chapter VI in Maude, Part Four, Chapter VI in Garnett. No further division in those editions that I can find. Sorry to confuse.

Oddly enough, I was unable to sleep and I came to f!s even though normally I wouldn't have. Which is lucky, because I'm glad to answer your questions.

1. I think you are referring to Book 2? The word you're asking about is in Russian: "развратная" (razvratnaya); it means a woman who is sexually unscrupulous, who sleeps around or flirts with multiple people at once in an erotic, sexual manner. It does not, however, have to involve actual sex/erotica, i.e. just like "depraved" and "dissolute", it can express a disdain for someone who is considered filthy, disgusting in this particular way, even if the repulsive behaviour in question isn't, technically speaking, sexual.

In this sense both terms are valid. But to answer your question, the original word DOES have certain connotations that, though being satisfactorily conveyed by neither translation, are better reflected by the word "dissolute" than the word "depraved". The words "razvrat" and "razvratnaya" come from the common root "vrat" or "vrasch", which means roughly "turning" or "to turn". "Razvrat" is "turning the wrong way", i.e. "turning around [so as to end up facing away from the truth, the purity, and the like]". It is not "loosening", exactly, but there is still a meaning of physically changing direction, of heading the wrong way.

Apart from that, (and here we're heading into the finer semantics) I personally do get the impression of "loosening" when I hear "razvrat" or "razvratnaya", because the root "vrasch" has an additional meaning of "rotating"/"to rotate"/"to be rotated". I think it says something that my first association with "razvrat" is basically a bunch of chaotically moving tentacles.

2. "Я не какая-нибудь дура… поди сам попробуй…" ("Ya ne kakaya-nibud' dura... Poidi sam poprobui...")

This is a very good question, because the expessions given are perfect examples of Tolstoy's brilliant use of language ^^ Pierre refers to them as "vulgar" because they are colloquial; they aren't quite slang, they aren't quite rude or wrong, but they aren't "refined language". "Kakaya-nibud" in particular, especially in combination with "dura", is supposed to grate on the reader's nerves. "Dura" is not, strictly speaking, "a fool" - or rather, it is "a fool", but while "a fool" can be used in perfectly refined sentences (Shakespearean English, too), "dura" is rougher, plainer, more undignified. Russians often translate the word "fool" as "glupets" to convey the original semantics, because "glupets" is a word even the finest of aristocrats, creme de la creme, could use, whereas "dura" or "durak" (the masculine analogue of "dura") sounds outright rude.

"Kakaya-nibud" would be better translated as "some", I think. Just as "some" can sound awkward when combined with colloquial language, "kakaya-nibud" makes Helene sound like a bit of a peasant girl when put in the same sentence with "dura".

"Podi" ("go") is an imperative that is also NOT "refined language", though it, again, is neither wrong nor slangish. Combined with "sam" ("for yourself", basically), it gives the speaker an air of pettiness. She sounds resentful, shallow - bitchy, even. "You go try that yourself! I should like to see you try it!"

Actually, both expressions are very much about pettiness - that's something a market woman would say but a woman of Helene's standing never should. "Kakaya-nibud dura", apart from sounding rough, essentially means "you can't fool me, I know the likes of you!"; "I'm not some moron, or do you think I am?" It makes unnecessary assumptions about the addressee which offend even though they are not actually directed at anyone. It carries with it a certain passive aggression, an attitude towards others as people who continually try "to fool" one in petty and shallow ways.

omg omg these answers are so perfect; I could not have hoped for better. THANK YOU SO MUCH <3

Is the word razvrat / razvratnaya (or something linguistically related) and the metaphor of turning the wrong way also used for religious heretics or apostates? Like would it be extra appropriate in light of Helene's later conversion to Roman Catholicism, or no?

THANK YOU; YOU ARE THE BEST

It no longer is - not in modern Russian - but that's the etymology! In the Old Church Slavonic it was widely used for heretics and other people who were perceived to be headed in a decidedly wrong direction, morals- and behaviour-wise. So

>Like would it be extra appropriate in light of Helene's later conversion to Roman Catholicism, or no?

I believe it would.

I think it is also a nice touch that "razvrat" is and has been used to mean immoral enjoyment of excessive wealth, which is of course directly connected to its sexual connotations. I imagine this is largely what Pierre means when he thinks of her, that she's got so much and uses it in such a disgusting manner.

:D Thank you; I'm happy I could help. It's a pleasure talking about things like this.

perfect perfect perfect

thanks so much again!

[ SECRET POST #2710 ]

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