[ SECRET POST #2721 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2721 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 084 secrets from Secret Submission Post #389.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I think when we see a man all beaten up it's still part of a male fantasy. Like we think that's just been through a big heroic struggle or something (not that this is the only reason someone might like that in fic/art). Usually when we see a woman in that situation, she's not the one who ends up saving herself. Also, fandom spaces tend to think differently than the regular population, which you were probably reading about. It's pretty much accepted in fandom spaces that it's okay to have dark fantasies as long as you acknowledge that they're fantasies. I could casually talk about a lot of fucked up things here and have people respond positively or not care. If I did the same thing in a non-fandom space people would think I was disturbed and wouldn't hesitate to tell me so.

[(Anonymous)]

Male...fantasy...how on earth is that a male fantasy?

[visp]

It's a macho, badass-proving kinda thing. That's why you see it in male-oriented movies.

[(Anonymous)]

Being the hero and saving the day? How is it not?

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I read an essay once about how Westerns show their protagonists being beaten up to emphasize how manly they are, because they don't cry or protest the pain. I guess I can see that, but I don't think that's the same sort of thing folks on FS talk about when they talk about how hot some guy is when he's being beaten up.

[hiyami]

Trufax : when discussing that episode of Buffy where Spike gets beaten up to a pulp by Gloria, a guy said it was a sexy scene when Buffy ghoes to his lair to thank him for saving Dawn.
I argued how the fuck can it be sexy when the guy looks all swollen and like every tiny move hurts? It doesn't inspire "Hey, let's have sex!".
The answer was "Oh he's a vampire, he's seen worse".

Well yeah, but considering I have some empathy, I still don't feel that anyone beaten up that bad would think of sex. I don't think they could think of anything else than "Ow. Ow. Ouch. Ow".

So, yeah.
That's when I realized that not everyone had the same reactions to scenes like that.

[(Anonymous)]

Don't follow the "male fantasy" bit but I kind of feel you on the empowerment issue. I have a story I'm writing with a main female character and two secondary male characters. The male characters can fight all right (it's that kind of story) but I leave all the best action/the toughest opponents to the female character. She's the one I want to be challenged and to overcome all that. Likewise, I sometimes think about how badass she is when she's all beaten up but still hanging out there (before she wins). I think that, to some degree, the enjoyment I take out of writing those scenarios arises from the fact that she takes the beating and comes out on top.

Ugh, did any of that make sense? I'm so bored and drowsy.

[(Anonymous)]

It made sense. I don't think my original comment made much sense because I think it's kind of a complex thing and I didn't feel like writing a two-page essay, so I had to make generalizations. Also, I'm drowsy too, and procrastinating.

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly. When a man gets beaten up, it's usually in a fight with another man who is approximately his equal. Or it's a Rocky situation where he's way outclassed, but you know he's going to come back and win it next time. When a woman is beaten up, it's usually because she's being abused, which is only horrible, not heroic or sexy.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with you when referring to mainstream media (Rocky, etc.), but not so much when it comes to the fandom spaces, where it definitely is horrible abuse, and yet is still seen as sexy (I'm thinking Theon Greyjoy at the moment).

[intrigueing]

I think that people still parse fandom abuse of men in the same way they parse Rocky-type violence, though, because the character's maleness trumps his situation. Like "he's male, and he's getting beaten up, therefore it's sexy irregardless of the situation" rather than "this guy is getting beaten up, the situation is abusive, therefore it's wrong irregardless of his gender." I *think* that's the way my lizard-brain always interprets it, no matter what my higher faculties tell me. People very, very frequently get correlation and causation subconsciously mixed up, and not just in fiction. It's irrational, but a lot of people's likes and dislikes are. ;)

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT. Really? Is this true? I haven't seen GOT, so this is all based on the books but Theon and Ramsay in the books really doesn't seem like Rocky-type violence to me at all. There's an explicitly sexual component to Ramsay's abuse, which I assume is not present in the whole "stoic dude getting beaten up" thing, and Theon suffers and is completely broken mentally/emotionally by it. To me it seems to come out of a separate turn-on tied up in a dominance/submission kink than it is at all related to the manly man fantasy.

I'm not in MCU or SPN fandom, but I feel like the way people like to see their favorites get abused and hurt/comforted and whumped has some aspects of that stoicness but also indulging in seeing their favorite at their most helpless and vulnerable. Anyway, pretty interesting topic -- I'm enjoying reading these comments.

[(Anonymous)]

There really are plenty female characters who save themselves and plenty of beaten up male characters who need saving, though...

[(Anonymous)]

So it's still a male fantasy, it just coincidentally happens to be porn for a large chunk of women. That works out nicely...

[(Anonymous)]

Look, in any medium where most of the creators (in this case, producers, directors, camerapeople, screenwriters, etc.) are men, the content is going to have a lot of men communicating with men. Violence and coercion are part of the language men are taught to use with everyone, but especially with each other. (Women use it differently. I'm not arguing that they don't use it at all.) Western society has a relatively low official tolerance for real adults getting into physical fights. Men duelling and brawling just doesn't get the social acceptance it used to enjoy. But fiction still treats it like a really normal, intrinsic-to-showing-what-you're-made-of thing. It's communication. It's language. The presence of violence is part of signalling to guys that any given movie has stuff in it that it's okay for them to care about and dissect minutely. It's saying "this man has character and heroism. He can suffer without freaking out. You're justified in looking up to him. He can keep fighting even when his body wants to get the hell out of this situation." And conversely, "this other man isn't tough at all. Judge him for it." So yes - watching men exemplify traits that other men are taught to respect them for having is fanservice. For men. It's wish fulfillment. It's competence porn. It's watching some badass be everything men are told they ought to be, and pull it off with style, and reap the rewards. The fact that (some) women look at it from their different point of view and find it sexy is important and worth talking about, but it isn't why men getting beaten bloody is a staple of movies. Even movies that overall are a big "fuck you" to women.