Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2014-06-22 04:03 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2014-06-22 04:03 pm
[ SECRET POST #2728 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2728 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 069 secrets from Secret Submission Post #390.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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And, honestly, giving your kid a meat drawer in the fridge doesn't seem like a huge, onerous thing to me, much less a matter of respect. It's making a shared living environment comfortable for someone else, someone young enough that they have to ask their mom to buy their lunch meats.
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Parents can accept that the child has different values than they have, but see, maybe to you it doesn't seem like much - how do you know that to parents, who have chosen a lifestyle of not killing other animals - how do you know how this feels?
We're not talking about denying the kid basic human rights, it's just asking that the kid eat meat outside the house (or rather, the kid having enough general empathy to realize that their desires do not always trump all).
If I go into the house of say an observant Muslim, I wouldn't bring in wine unless they explicitly ask me to/tell me it's ok. Basic fucking decency!
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The parents may have chosen that lifestyle, but their kid is in the process of choosing a different one. And if they want that child to come home again after they're old enough to leave, the parents also need to understand that their feelings don't trump all. (And frankly, what teenager doesn't suspect themselves the center of their own universe?)
While I certainly don't know how the parents feel, I would imagine that there's a comparable amount of discomfort on the other side. It's got to be difficult to discover that you want/believe differently from the way that you were raised and reject your parents' beliefs, especially when you can't leave yet.
The example with the visit to the practicing Muslims doesn't really apply. For one thing, you don't live in that house. For another, you're a guest, not one of their children. What one expects of a guest and what one expects of a child who lives under one's roof are very different things. Good visiting manners are not the same as good sharing a space manners, much less good parenting. To compare your visiting manners to the expressed needs of a child living under her parents roof is to imply that (dependent) children are guests who have long stayed past the polite departure date.
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I guess I'm just not seeing this horrible, horrible trauma and rift that will be caused in the family if the kid says "no but I want to eat meat" and the parents say "no problem, here's money for hamburgers, go buy fried chicken, eat meat at friends' houses if you want, we just prefer not to have any in the house." Tbh, I think if the kid is going to flip their shit all like no! No! I must have meat HERE, right NOW, that's... pretty dang shitty of them.
We do not need to satisfy every single whim or desire at the exact moment we feel it, or be a sad suffering martyr forever.
Hell, one of my best friends grew up vegetarian and decided not to continue. She ate meat out plenty, and only brought meat into the house when the parents were away and disposed of the leftovers or put them away discreetly at the back of the refrigerator. She wasn't traumatized or oppressed and she has a great relationship with her parents. She's married now, and chosen to have a meat wedding (with vegetarian options), and now eats meat in her home. And everybody still has a lovely relationship with each other.
The problem is that you see deferred gratification as denial.
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So it's fair to say, I don't see the horrible, horrible trauma and rift that will be caused in a family in the kid says, "Hey, in this entire refrigerator full of vegetables, I want this little drawer here for my personal meat locker. Thanks."
Frankly, I don't see the difference between your friend's "disrespect" in sullying her family's household with meat products when they aren't there versus a teen who's "disrespectful" by being honest. They're doing the same thing, except one's respectful enough to just level with her parents like they're, you know, adults.
And I'm not sure why you're lecturing me about the joys of deferred gratification or why you feel comfortable stating how I understand deferred gratification versus denial, especially since we've talked twice, including this time, and the other time, it was mostly you explaining Judaism and being incredulous about people who do faith over medicine. You're projecting. Stop it.
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Either way, I think that the parents and child should come to an agreement both can live with, but I do think that the child insisting on having meat if the parents are uncomfortable with it is ultimately disrespectful.
As to deferred gratification vs. denial, I admit, I do see the parents' side more in that it is their household. The child can grow up and make their own decisions, and the parents can support the child making their own decisions, but it's also reasonable for them to have certain rules concerning what goes on within their house. I believe that not eating meat is within reason.
It seemed to me that your argument was based on conflating deferred gratification with denial (since you said that "no X in the house" was denial, whereas I see it as permitting it everywhere but within the house, i.e. deferred gratification). I apologize for the misunderstanding and for jumping to conclusions and will endeavor to read more carefully in the future.
I had not understood the mindset of faith over medicine, and I appreciated you explaining it to me. I just reread our previous conversation, and I explained the Orthodox mindset because I had the impression that there was a question about Orthodox Judaism being against vaccination, and I truly appreciated your input. My questions were honest, because while I had encountered people who had a mindset of refusing medication for religious reasons, I hadn't been aware that it extended to disease prevention and was surprise.
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I actually really appreciated the explanation about Orthodox Judaism. It's not something that I encounter a lot. (I also admit that I pretty much assumed it was a religious thing without knowing what faith the actress was. Conditioning, I suppose.)
While it's not my brand of faith, as I understand it, it's all encompassing. Like, if you get bitten by a poisonous snake, your limb rotting off or you dying of the venom is a sign of not having enough faith. If your child develops cancer, it's to the faith healers, not the children's cancer ward.
(Of course, in cases involving minors, the state usually steps in to force medical treatment for the child, assuming that someone bothers to inform the state that this is going on. It's all around sad because everyone is genuinely trying to do what they think is best (and usually fighting viciously) for a very sick kid who doesn't need any sort of extra stress just then. But if the state didn't intervene, the kid wouldn't survive, so it's unavoidable. And I'd imagine that sort of situation would be hard on (or possibly the death of) that sort of extreme faith, but I don't really know.)
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Hmm, okay, I guess I can see where they're coming from (though I do disagree). I suppose the theological issue I see with that view is that if so, we shouldn't give to charity either, because obviously if God wants people to have money, He will provide. And yet we're supposed to help others, therefore that's a philosophical basis for not everything being down to just faith...
I'm not sure if for example the death of the child would be the death of the faith for everybody. I think often extreme faith like that comes with coping mechanisms/explanations for that sort of situation.
Once again, I do apologize, and I hope we'll be able to have interesting and productive conversations in the future.
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I... don't actually know if they do charity. I mean, I'd assume so, but that's based more on my own life experiences. I don't actually know.
I agree that it might not be the death knell for everyone, but I think it might be for some. (Saving the child through modern medicine might be equally faith-rocking, though.)
But I think every faith has its zealots that make the rest of the practitioners sigh and hide their faces.
Don't worry! (Or alternatively, apology accepted? Whichever would make you happier.) We'll probably talk in the future! (The productivity of my replies will probably depend on the topic, though. For instance, I have nothing productive to say about puppies... other than that they're adorable!)
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I'm not saying parents shouldn't learn how to negotiate and compromise, mind. But if the parents are vegetarian for ethical reasons, I don't see how it's any different from wanting to enforce a religious dietary restriction within the household setting.
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Heck, I've known parents who didn't mind giving their non-vegetarian kid some money to buy meat upon occasion, so they could enjoy without worrying about spending their allowance on it (because meat can be kind of expensive).
Parents are allowed to have some household rules, I seriously don't get what the big deal about them is. Especially since, like you say, it's not that bad a restriction.
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(Anonymous) 2014-06-23 09:25 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2014-06-23 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)