[ SECRET POST #2742 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2742 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 094 secrets from Secret Submission Post #392.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

16. http://i.imgur.com/WkdqQTi.png

[morieris]

What is the general opinion of Dumbledore, d'you think?

[dreemyweird]

Dunno about Bubblegum, but the problem with Dumbledore is that Rowling never meant for him to be the kind of leader who is considered wise and kind but is later shown to behave in a "cold and unethical" way. If he comes off this way (which, admittedly, he kind of does at times), it is the result of a sort of big writing accident. That's the entire cause of your problem, OP.

I do wish Rowling were a more self-aware author, but eh, apparently one needs to look for high levels of self-awareness elsewhere.

[(Anonymous)]

I...really don't think Rowling intended for him to be totally wise and good. Really? You really think she intended that? Sorry but...I don't see how you can think that. She seemed pretty damn self-aware of how flawed he was in Book 7. I mean, Book 7 and the entire character of Aberforth doesn't even make sense if she wasn't self-aware that Dumblefore was flawed.

She didn't intend him to be totally cold and unethical, but I don't think he was. He was somewhat cold and unethical, but not totally.

[(Anonymous)]

This. It was the whole point the subplot of Deathly Hallows: Dumbledore was a flawed person who made some stupid, immoral or cold decisions. He also saved a lot of lives with his choices.

Not unlike Churchill, who was a hero, but dude, do you know some of the evil shit he did to help save the world?

[dreemyweird]

Nooo, that's not what I meant. Sorry, I was unclear.

Of course she never intended for him to be a perfectly wise and kind person, which is the whole point of the Ariana Dumbledore arc. Rather, my opinion is that she wanted to show him as a mentor figure who seems perfect at first but then turns out to be just as imperfect as everyone else, but failed in that he comes off as a really, seriously fucked up person. Not just the "human" and "imperfect" kind of character, but the "oh my god wtfff is he even doing" kind.

[crunchysunrises]

Sorry, but nope, JKR apparently really did think DD was wise and good.

The exact quote was, "...Dumbledore is the "epitome of goodness."" - JKR in this interview.

[intrigueing]

Sorry but...Rowling is definitely somewhat un-self-aware about some things, but I don't see how anyone could read DH and think she thought Dumbledore was perfectly wise and good. It was a pretty straightforward mentor-pedestal-topple of the sympathetic coming-of-age type rather than the massive-betrayal deconstruction type.

[dreemyweird]

Sorry, my bad! I merely meant that Rowling wished to give him a certain moral ambiguity and ended up going straight into the uncanny valley instead.

[cushlamochree]

I think Dumbledore is more of a flawed but basically alright human being who has problems with being too cold and unethical, rather than some kind of fucked-up asshole you're supposed to hate. That's always been my impression anyway.

Also, I think it does kind of matter how we see him. The fact that we start out by seeing him, more or less at the end of his life, through the perspective of someone who is much younger and who sees him as this sort of extraordinary heroic, moral father figure - well, of course that image couldn't be maintained, because it never can be, and it makes perfect sense that the image would change as Harry matured. And then on the other hand, we only really see some of the things that would make us most critical of him after he's dead, in memory and in the memories of others. To me, I think that softens the critique of him a lot - the fact that we're only seeing these things in the context of his life already complete. He goes from being an unrealistic father figure to being a real human being who did wrong things and who is dead, but he's still a sympathetic character to me.

Anyway, I'm not really into Adventure Time so I can't make any ridiculous rambly posts comparing him to Bubblegum, sorry.

[intrigueing]

I think Dumbledore is more of a flawed but basically alright human being who has problems with being too cold and unethical, rather than some kind of fucked-up asshole you're supposed to hate. That's always been my impression anyway.

Yeah basically this. And I really don't understand why some people think Rowling thought he was totally good perfect person. Sorry, but it's pretty damn obvious Rowling knew he was a flawed person. Almost excessively so.

[dreemyweird]

I think Dumbledore is more of a flawed but basically alright human being who has problems with being too cold and unethical, rather than some kind of fucked-up asshole you're supposed to hate. That's always been my impression anyway.

I agree that is how the readers are supposed to see him and what he is according to the laws of this fictional universe.

I do not think that the author managed to pull it off :/

Your point about the perspective is very good. Still, in my view, it doesn't remedy the situation.

[(Anonymous)]

Well she clearly pulled it off to some extent because that's how a lot of people do see him.

I mean I get that others see Dumbledore as 'omg nearing Voldemort levels of evil' but that isn't actually the only way to read his character.

[grausam]

yeah, good point. first we see him as the wistest, almost universally beloved wizard and after his death his biggest mistakes- our perception will be pretty screwed after that.

However I always thought his character fit Rowling's theme of choosing to be good through your deeds best. Being sympathetic or ethical apparently didn't always come naturally to him and he was a disconnected genius who was prone to using people in his schemes even later in life. But he was overall good anyhow.

[(Anonymous)]

But to be fair Dumbledore's still young and the young are always more easily forgiven for their mistakes while everyone knows someone as hella old as PB ought have wizened up by now.

[arcadiaego]

I don't watch Adventure Time but I share your reservations about Dumbledore. Sometimes I feel that it's intentional but then other times I think JKR is justifying how he behaves when really it's awful.

[dreemyweird]

>Sometimes I feel that it's intentional but then other times I think JKR is justifying how he behaves when really it's awful.

YES THANKS, that is exactly what I meant.

[crunchysunrises]

I do think JKR spends a lot of time justifying DD's bad behavior. In her own words, "Dumbledore [...] is the "epitome of goodness."" - JKR in this interview.

I suspect at some level she's got to know that he's awful though, so you get the patchy POV and, eventually, Aberforth's bitterness.

[(Anonymous)]

I love Bubblegum but honestly I'm not really sure what the deal with some of her characterization is. Obviously she's shown to be cold and unethical sometimes, and does some really weird, messed up stuff, but she also just as often is characterized as extremely loving/caring as a ruler. I don't know if this is meant to be a personal/public level personality disconnect or what (or if this is a legit internal conflict between writers or something), but it kind of confuses me.

[(Anonymous)]

I thought that was the point of her, that she had the sugar and ice personality, she's sweet to her subjects but when it comes to the crunch, she's brutal. She has the monstrous mother feel to her I always thought more like the Xenomorph then Dumbledore where her kids mean everything and everything else, yeah tough shit.

[(Anonymous)]

Not that she has a problem sending "her kids" to certain death and then just cloning a bunch of them. Or cutting their limbs off and attaching them to other creations, just to see what would happen.

PB creeps me the hell out more and more as the show progresses. I hope it's building to something, because the dissonance between her 'persona' and her 'personality' is getting really pronounced.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I'm with anon, really excited where Bubblegum goes on the show. You can just frikking feel the shit about to hit the fan with her. I guess the Xenemorph was a crappy example, XD
Maybe she's more like the Other Mother from Coraline. *Loves* her kids, will do *anything* to keep them happy and content, but she'll just as easily kill them off or fuck them over without warning.

[(Anonymous)]

PB's rather questionable behaviour is why she's my favourite character. Going into the series I expected to dislike her, because I thought she'd act the way she looks. Nooope. She's really shady and sometimes pretty harsh, and I love it. Especially in contrast with how cute and sweet she looks.
You can see she does what she thinks is best, but her morality/logic is based on the 'greater good' - and she's willing to sacrifice individuals and individual freedoms for it. A perfect example is when Flame Princess overheated and FP and Finn both wound up in that big hole FP had burned through the earth. Bubblegum told Jake to block the hole, which deprived the two teens of oxygen (which stopped Flame Princess from burning). She fully intended to kill FP and probably Finn with this plan, but the alternative was Flame Princess pretty much destroying the entire planet.
Stuff like this keeps happening through the series. She's very morally grey and isn't afraid to be harsh or merciless. She's also just a lot harder and less cutesy than you'd initially expect. I personally ADORE that about her. I'm not going to defend and excuse all the bad/questionable stuff she does, because I want to celebrate it. But I think a large part of the problem is her actual behaviour and personality really conflict with what most people expect her to be. Which is a cute, simpering, brainless, helpless, sweet little love interest for Finn. She's... not really any of those things.

[(Anonymous)]

I completely agree! Bubblegum is almost ruthlessly pragmatic and I think that makes her a very interesting character

[(Anonymous)]

I totes get why people hate PB, but I'll still defend her. Because we need morally ambiguous female characters. She's a regular doctor Frankenstein and how often do we get that?