[ SECRET POST #2783 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2783 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 069 secrets from Secret Submission Post #398.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - random pattern image ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[peablossom]

IA with all of this. And I get very irritated by the people that equate Ward with Bucky and go well if Bucky can get redeemed, and did all this horrible shit, then how can you not see it for Ward?

Because Ward chose to do all the shit he did, that's why.

[ariakas]

Uh, Bucky is a POW held against his will who literally cannot remember his past or his loyalties, forced to comply through chemical torture. The very moment he starts to shake off their direct control he immediate resists.

Yeah that's pretty comparable to a willing, knowing, Hydra agent helping his friends and father figure to murder, kidnap, and torture people. Because he has sad feels.

To a dumbass, anyway.

[peablossom]

Pretty much.

[amber_protocol]

lmfao, mte.

[klutzygirl]

Ward didn't have a choice, though, since John Garrett fucking kidnapped and abused him for fifteen years straight.

Abuse is a form of brainwashing and it actually exists in the real world, unlike what happened with Bucky. They were both brainwashed, just in different ways.

[peablossom]

I acknowledge that it can be interpreted that way, but I didn't get that from the show, personally. Maybe it was a choice in the writing or the acting, I don't know. In any case, he shouldn't be back working for SHIELD next season (as he inevitably will be) even if it is because he should be getting massive therapy and help.

[klutzygirl]

The showrunners and actors themselves (Brett, Chloe, Bill Paxton himself, and others) have confirmed themselves that Garrett was abusive.

Moments where we see it in action:

1 (clear emotional abuse)

2 (he literally cannot function without orders)

3

4

That scene where he beat him "for the cover"? Not the first time based on their behavior, and Garrett went above and fucking beyond. It's terrifying.

And some of his behavior has also raised red flags with abuse survivors who watch the show and are worried that there might have been some sexual abuse involved too (prior to Lorelei).

[ariakas]

Ward is an adult now, and many adult victims of abuse have walked away from their abusers and chosen different paths through life. You're talking like Ward has no agency here, when everything that happened was a direct result of his choices (to set his house on fire rather than run away or go to CPS, to follow Garrett out of juvie, to stay in Alaska for those years waiting for him to return instead of just hitching a ride with the next campers back to civilization, to continue to follow him after he revealed who and what he was and what he was capable of, not to betray him to Coulson and the others, etc.).

Whereas Bucky literally had no choices, and no memories, and when finally given a choice and some memory, he chooses to save Cap and flee Hydra.

These are not even remotely comparable situations. Ward was influenced. Bucky was forced.

[klutzygirl]

That's because Ward didn't have any agency. John Garrett stripped it from him and broke him over and over again. Ward was led to believe that being dumped in the woods was part of his training for SHIELD. John convinced Ward that he owed him everything when that was the furthest thing from the truth.

And we don't know what his situation was like - maybe CPS didn't help and he finally had enough and that's why he snapped.

While Ward may have agreed to leave juvie, he was still an underage child and that is kidnapping. And then Garrett proceeded to emotionally and physically abuse him. Ward was forced too because his abuser convinced him there was no way out and he had nobody else. And where else was Ward supposed to go, since he had fled from juvie?

Eight months on the bus isn't going to break fifteen years of conditioning and abuse (with another fifteen years of abuse prior to that).

Bucky also didn't remember who he was until he saw Steve, who definitely helped break the conditioning. Ward was forced too.

However, the abuse definitely doesn't excuse Ward's actions and he does need to pay for them in jail.

[ariakas]

That's because Ward didn't have any agency. John Garrett stripped it from him and broke him over and over again.

This isn't even remotely true. We see Ward make independent choices over and over again, including ones Garrett doesn't absolutely approve of. Ward is not under Garrett's direct control - he has ample opportunity to betray him to both SHIELD and the rest of the crew. Killing someone's dog doesn't "break" them, and neither does dumping them in the woods where they can hike back to civilization. Garrett revealed that he was a liar and a murderer while Ward had every opportunity to leave, and he still followed him. Being influenced by an abuser is not being "forced", and many victims of abuse can and do leave and turn on their abusers.

Bucky is literally under direct control. He is actually being forced. He can't leave, and he can't even remember who he was. As soon as he's actually given options, he chooses his original loyalties. Ward is repeatedly given choices throughout the show and throughout his life, and he chooses Garrett and Hydra every time, right to the end. These situations are not even remotely comparable.

[(Anonymous)]

+1000

Actually, +1000 to every single one of your comments about Ward and/or Bucky. Thanks for laying out your analysis of the situation so clearly and insightfully.

[(Anonymous)]

This, every word.

Thanks for laying it out. Alas, logic and reason do not apply to some fans' treatises. Their stubborn refusal to see the evil in a character they woobify is pathetic.

(Not to say I like Cap-style lawful-good protags; I still have a hankering for Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for example, and would sleep with Damon of Vampire Diaries fame in a heartbeat. But they are both murderers and rapists; they just also happen to be sharp and snarky and oh, yeah, easy on the eyes.)

[diet_poison]

This is where I really have to disagree. Yes, Ward's past was horrible and I pity teenage!Ward for the things that happened to him, and John Garrett deserves any and all shit he gets for how he treated the guy. But Ward still made choices. The past influences who he is as a person and to a certain extent might have made a redemption for him possible and believable, except he was pretty over the top and demonstrated some frankly sociopathic tendencies as an adult. A redemption might still be possible but only with some reservation - he better not be accepted back in the team ever, for example. But he made choices as an adult that he has to take responsibility for. He's capable of determining right from wrong and chooses to do wrong anyway (excellent example is his ejection of FitzSimmons from the plane).

[(Anonymous)]

YES THIS OMG. +1000000000000000000