fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2790 ]

[ SECRET POST #2790 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2790 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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As somone who actually studied screenwriting, his plots and even worse - attempts at character and seasonal arcs - are shit. He can do single episodes well, especially if they are scary or action-packed, but I feel he absolutely falls flat as a showrunner. I think a lot of people pick up on that, but thery have their own reasons for disliking him.

I don´t think he should die ort whatever stupid things you think we say, nor do I go bitching about it on Doctor Who forums, but a lot of the criticism is legitimate. Sure, you can not watch the show, but it is an old show with an olf fandom that is really invested. It would just be nice if someone else took the helm, you know.

The thing is, though, a lot (and even a majority) of the criticism isn't coming from Classic Who fans. It is coming from RTD and Ten-only fans who think that you can't disagree with them and that their opinions are objectively true.

And frankly, while you may have studied screenwriting, I think most of this is a lot more subjective than that. Moffat has his particular writing foibles, though I personally prefer most of his arcs to RTD's, but RTD has his own writing foibles as well as do the classic era showrunners and writers. Moffat isn't the devil. His writing isn't everyone's cup of tea, and it does have problems (and things that are subjective that a lot of people dislike). But I think a lot of Moffat haters are determined to get everyone to agree with them and tend to ruin conversations where people are talking about the things they actually like about Moffat's stuff.

I am not saying I am the gurdian of the truth, I am saying his writing does have objective problems. I prefer RTD myself, but his writing also has issues, especially in retrospect. And some Cllassic Who was downright silly and campy, but hey nostalgia goggles.

Out of curiosity, how do most Classic Who fans feel about Moffat? I'm not in the fandom, but I'd be interested to know.

It really depends. I've seen some who don't like New Who at all, some who don't like Moffat, some who don't like RTD, and some who like all of it. I haven't really seen any sort of united Classic Who feeling about anything in the modern era.

This Classic Who fan likes him a lot better than RTD, but he does need to reel in his fannishness though. Sometimes some of his ideas seem to come from the bit of the Tom Baker era where Baker was pushing for a talking cabbage on his shoulder. Only Moff isn't having someone reeling that stuff in. We don't need a female Master or alternate ethnicity Doctor or anything of that ilk. Those wacky fan theories should be kept to fanfic.

Why are they whacky?

BF is a classic Who fan. He liked 9, but skipped most of 10 because of Rose/10 silliness. Doesn't care for RTD. Liked some of Moffat's earlier episodes before he became the showrunner, but has hated everything since then. The plots are just ridiculous. We might give Capaldi's Doctor another try, though.

Another original DW fan here. This is also me, though I'm not crazy about 9. 9 was the best of a bad bunch, IMO.

As someone who started with Classic Who way back in the day, I don't get the Moffat hate. I only saw from the 5th doctor on, but to me it was always a show that was hit-and-miss. Some eps were great, some sucked, and most were somewhere in the middle. On balance, I've liked the new series better than the old (both RTD and Moffat) and I can't say it's any worse about continuity or characterization than the older eps I've seen.

The only people who can validly criticize Moffat are classic Who fans? Interesting.

That's not what I was saying at all. Anyone can "validly" criticize anything. I was just responding to a comment that was saying the criticism was coming from Classic Who fans. And saying that in my experience that isn't true. And also, most of the obnoxious criticizers who talk about their opinion as objective fact and ruin it for those who like Moffat's era are mostly Ten-only fans, at least in my experience.

There is a difference between criticism/discussing opinions about disliking something and the level to which some people take it where they are ruining it for everyone. And that is coming mostly from a particular group of fans.

And also, most of the obnoxious criticizers who talk about their opinion as objective fact and ruin it for those who like Moffat's era are mostly Ten-only fans, at least in my experience.

I wish people would stop saying this. It is completely false.

If your saying what I said is false, then no, in my experience, it isn't. I can't speak for anyone else's, but that is what I've seen in the fandom.

Everyone I know who criticizes Moffat has at the very least watched Nine, if not some or a lot of Classic Who, so yes, I think 'Ten only' fans is a load of.

Well, yes, watched Nine. I meant Ten-only in terms of only liking him or thinking he's vastly superior and somehow a different person from the other Doctors.

No.

I am very tired of people brushing off legitimate criticism of Moffat's work as being a thing perpetuated by over the top Ten fans. It's false, baseless, and it silences legitimate complaints about real issues (misogyny, racism, etc.) by brushing them off as something that exists because a fanatical fringe can't get over losing their fave. Most Ten fans are GLAD he regenerated.

Having Ten as your favorite Doctor doesn't mean you think he's 'superior' to other Doctors. It just means he's your favorite. When people say that to them the Doctor died with Ten (which is not at all just said by people who have Ten as their fave), they're not saying it because Ten is THE MOST IMPORTANT DOCTOR EVER. They're saying that because if they accept that Ten regenerated into Eleven, they can no longer like the Doctor (any regeneration of him) because they find Eleven to be so awful. It's got nothing to do uniquely with Ten, and everything to do with Eleven.

Oh for god's sake. I'm not talking about legitimate criticism or people who just don't like him and understand it is opinion. I'm talking about specifically the obnoxious people who horn Moffat hate into every conversation, insist that everyone should agree with them and everyone who doesn't is objectively wrong, and purposefully try to ruin it for everyone else. And those very specific people seem to mostly be that specific type of Ten fan.

There is nothing wrong with being that type of Ten fan. The problem is being obnoxious and ruining it for everyone who disagrees with you.

Stop policing other people's experiences. You can say "well, my experience doesn't mine up with what you're saying at all" but telling someone that their observations are either objectively wrong somehow or telling them that they're lying makes you a compelte asshole.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-24 10:27 (UTC) - Expand

He has massive problems as a writer and has a showrunner, but he also has some things that he's incredibly good at, and the problem is a fandom that seems to only be capable of recognizing one half of those things at any given time.

That is hive mentality for you, though.

Another thing is that people tend to be very bad at nunce. It is much easier to just say "I full on love this", or "I really hate this" tha to say I love a,b,c - but I dilike x,y,z about this fandom.

Agree re: Moffat's abilities. I enjoyed his single episodes, but his work as the showrunner has been deeply, deeply disappointing. :(

The problem is that in the same breath, a lot of them celebrate Davies who was just as bad and spoon-fed you his plots to the point I felt fucking insulted.

Flip sides of the same poisoned coin IMO.

I like Davies better in a lot of ways (most importantly in how he writes characters) - but yes, he has some issues, too. He at least tries for seasonal arcs,but they're not that brilliant, especially in retrospect. Then he basically just has a lot of episodes of "hey, look, monster - let's run". Still prefer him, but he is by no means flawless.

Also it's often just hit or miss with him - see also: Torchwood.

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