[ SECRET POST #2791 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2791 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 058 secrets from Secret Submission Post #399.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[firstmoonie]

I hate "kick ass woman = well written, feminine woman = weak".

I'm sick to death of this.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

That's not what I said. Fandom thinks that's what writers think, and in fairness, a lot of them do. But fandom's answer is doing a 180 and saying "no, feminine woman = well written, kick ass woman = weak," and that's not any better.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

Is that really fandom's answer?

I mean, I agree if people are doing it, it's dumb.

Re: OP

[dreemyweird]

Is a woman with "a will of iron" really "a feminine woman"? I mean... it kind of sounds like another version of the shooting and punching girl, not a 180.

Re: OP

[ginainthekingsroad]

I don't think "iron will" and "feminine" are mutually exclusive at all. I think an "iron will" means having a ton of determination and focus on achieving their goal (perhaps to the exclusion of others). It has nothing to do with physical strength, it's an inward quality. And femininity is about presentation; in the ASOIAF universe, about how best to get by in a strongly patriarchal society by applying that femininity.

That combo definitely applies to Sansa, where it is played sympathetically with regards to her hostage/pawn status; but it can also describe Cersei, where it is being used as a tragic flaw.

I actually think I really like that combination, as the first character that jumped to mind with regards to that wasn't from ASOIAF at all, but Brenda Johnson from The Closer.

Re: OP

[dreemyweird]

Point taken :) I think the secret+OP's subsequent explanations are worded in a way that suggests that having a will of iron is in itself a feminine quality, though, which is a bit ???

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

Fandom doesn't say that, in my experience. Fandom is more inclined to say that making a female character kick ass in order to be seen as strong is lazy writing.

Re: OP

[firstmoonie]

First of all Sansa is a very well written woman who has human flaws and struggles to survive with the upbringing she had. (let's get this one out here)

Second, I agree. But this type of thinking is linked to unfair bashing and belittling targeted to feminine characters. As long as well written, both of types are interesting. But tbh in the recent years "ubah cool" woman archetype turned into such a joke, I can understand why fans are searching for more "relatable" characters.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

No, that's not what fandom thinks, IME. It's usually, "But what else is there to her besides that?"

[(Anonymous)]

Yep, "Real Women Never Wear Dresses" is the trope now, right?

Just came to mind because of the TVTropes secret.

[ariakas]

On the flipside, though, if a woman is too kickass and too masculine, people will just call her a "man with boobs" who "doesn't count" because she's not a "real female character". Not just random internet comments either - high-profile feminist commentators like Sarkeesian dismiss female characters outright if they don't have sufficiently feminine attributes to "count".

[inthecorner]

Both of those attitudes suck. All they do it box female characters and (in other ways, real-life people) into rigid boxes that no one can actually fit in to.


So, yeah, you're both right.

[firstmoonie]

I'm sorry but I've yet to come across this. At least female audience LOVES kick ass woman and defends her no matter what. But feminine? Even some so called feminists call them "playing straight patriarchy tropes" or just outright sexist.

Reminds me of the bashing civillian superhero love interests because how dare they not have superpowers??? But "kick ass" ones always seem to get a pass.

[ariakas]

Okay. I've seen it plenty. And like I said, even high profile feminists say this - check out Anita Sarkeesian's views on "Ms. Male Characters" on YouTube.

Hell, "isn't traditionally feminine? must be transgendered!" on tumblr is an offshoot of this. They're not "real" women if they aren't sufficiently girly.

[firstmoonie]

Exactly. When even females bash femininty and see it as weakness, there is nothing else you can expect from men.

Yuuuccck tumblr. I hate trans headcanons in general because it's insulting all sides.

The hate they receive is mostly because some of those woman are entirely unrelatable and it's just how men see feminists (butch, acting like man). If the trope wasn't promoted to us as "only way women can be equal" I don't think it'd get that much hate.

But that's just me of course.

[(Anonymous)]

So, having never watched that episode and not knowing specifically what she was talking about, in the context of video games, due to the nature of them, a female character can literally just be a facelift of the male character, and the male character is clearly what they're "aiming" for. For instance, see FemShep. FemShep, ESPECIALLY in ME1, notably was still like her male counterpart in odd ways. Some animations were poor on her, I think a few times you were called "he", the fact that female characters would hit on you that would have hit on ManShep, but no male characters hit on you or ManShep, period (besides Kaidan), etc.

However, I think many video game characters just are written and act a certain way, and sometimes women are written into these roles. That doesn't make them unfeminist, just poorly written, just as their male counterparts are.

[diet_poison]

high-profile feminist commentators like Sarkeesian

I'm honestly curious - do people take her seriously?

[ariakas]

Well she's been invited to a TED Talk, so I'd say so. Plus there's the sheer amount of frothing rage poured her way that would be hard to justify if no one cared about what she had to say.

[(Anonymous)]

In my experience, yes. I've had at least 3 tutors recommend her videos to us in class (we're game development).