[ SECRET POST #2797 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2797 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


__________________________________________________



02.


__________________________________________________



03.


__________________________________________________



04.


__________________________________________________



05.


__________________________________________________



06.


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.


__________________________________________________



09.


__________________________________________________



10.


__________________________________________________



11.


__________________________________________________



12.


__________________________________________________



13.







Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 085 secrets from Secret Submission Post #400.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

08. http://i59.tinypic.com/55koqe.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

There's this weird thing where normal human beings are able to observe other people's feelings and actions and understand and sympathize with them, even when they can't personally identify with them at all.

It's sort of difficult for sociopaths and narcissists to grasp though, yeah.

[jaybie_jarrett]

Wow congrats that's the dumbest thing I've seen.

Identifying with a character actually DOES help in writing them. and needing to identify with a character to feel like you can write them or preferring to have something you relate with the character on or identify with them DOESN'T make you a sociopath OR narcissist.

Quit being an armchair psychologist

[(Anonymous)]

Except that sociopaths and narcissists lack the ability to identify with people. Identification is a key component of empathy, and sociopaths and narcissists do not feel empathy. That's what makes them what they are.

So, not only is it offensive for you to imply that OP has one of those two issues, it's also wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey, all the pros say write what you know. So that works. And if you don't know something, you have to research it.

[(Anonymous)]

I actually completely disagree with "write what you know." That's sort of total bullshit. Writing fiction has always been about imagination, about stretching your mind and fantasizing about possibilities. Things that you haven't experienced or things you like to wonder about because they didn't happen. And no, I'm not talking about scifi/fantasy or anything. That has very little to do with imaginative writing.

Now it's a good thing to mix in some of what you know into your writing, to give it an authentic feel and because writing is also the writer's self-expression, but if "what you know" is the only thing you ever write? No. This "write what you know" bullshit is the reason so-called "serious literature" is overrun with a repetitive mind-numbing parade of middle-aged upper-middle-class educated white guys who are convinced their vague dissatisfaction with life is the most meaningful feeling in the world (or as I once heard someone else on F!S awesomely say, "english professors contemplating adultery.)

Research though, yes, I agree with, if the thing you're writing about is an actual thing that other people in the world actually know something about.

I both agree and disagree

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think that identifying with a character is necessarily self-insertion (although I have seen it lead to this). But at the same time, I don't think you MUST identify with a character nor draw on your own experiences to get into their head. Oftentimes, I think a better avenue is to do research on that character and their life circumstances. For Draco Malfoy, I think rather than try to relate yourself to him, you'd be better off reading up on the views of white supremacists to understand why they believe what they believe and use that as a foundation for writing Draco's prejudice.

I read a really wonderful fan fiction about Steve Rogers/Captain America, for example, that had him trying to deal with his homosexuality by going to "conversion therapy." The author was very clearly disgusted by such "therapies" (and thought of them as abusive) and yet was able to characterize Steve's motivations and his "counselor's" motivations really well -- by painting them as people who wanted to hold on to something (a traditional family) rather than just being disgusted with non-heterosexuals. It was clear that she'd done a lot of research into such groups and it paid off splendidly in the fan fiction. Even though she herself was VERY pro-LGBT, she was still able to write three-dimensional and humanized characters who disagreed with her position.

Re: I both agree and disagree

[(Anonymous)]

This is how I see it. I actively try to avoid identifying too much with characters because I don't want my own feelings and life experiences coloring theirs. I want to focus on their views and the life experiences they've had that led to those views, which are something completely separate from my own. Just because we may have the same feelings doesn't mean the reasoning behind those feelings is the same.

[sparklywalls]

I'm not sure if I agree with this secret if I'm reading it correctly. I've written some pretty darn unpleasant characters both in fanfic and original work and I wouldn't say my own personal experiences could be used in most cases. I just draw on my observations of how either the real world works or how other writers portray people I'd never be in a million years.

I mean, I've never been on a starship either but I have no problem trying to imagine what it's like.

[solticisekf]

Would it be difficult, writing evil characters in the 1st person?

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I've never been on a starship either but I have no problem trying to imagine what it's like.

Yes, but how would you go about imagining it? Would you draw on experiences you have had, like -- well, I used to live on a boat, which was small, and cramped, with very limited facilities, and vulnerable to sinking or being cast adrift, so I might use those insights. And if I was writing violence, I'd look for the sliver of violence in me, at the times when I've wanted to lash out at someone (but didn't), explore how it felt, imagine what it might be like to be driven by those feelings, and then apply those insights to my writing. That's what I mean by 'identifying' and 'drawing on your own experience'. It complements observation.

[peablossom]

I might be understanding, but if you're saying you have to kind of get into a character's headspace to write them, well, then that is very true for me. I can't write someone without, I don't know, being them. Partially. For a little while. But not everyone writes that way, I'm sure.

[sarillia]

That's how I am too. But this is also something I do for fun. I try to imagine a sympathetic argument for the Death Eaters or get into Azula's headspace and play around or whatever else.

I think other people may be interpreting "identifying with" differently than I am. I just see it is relating to the emotions they're experiencing however you can. Seeing if I can use my own daddy issues to understand Malfoy for a bit and extrapolating my feelings of rejection or whatever on other characters.

[inkdust]

I think people's conceptions of "identify with" are varying here.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, I think they are! I need to write my secrets better!

[solticisekf]

That's why I think writers with wide range of chaacters are pretty clever - they have to get inside their characters heads and understand different people. Rowling is awesome in writting even background characters, for ex.

[(Anonymous)]

On some level you are right. I mean you can't feel or know anyone's emotions as acutely as your own so on some level you have to insert yourself in the character. But the problem most people have with this is that you are not exactly like the character. By identifying too much with them it is very easy to make them do things that you would do in that situation instead of what they would do.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

make them do things that you would do in that situation instead of what they would do

Yes. In addition to doing the identifying, you also have to know when to step back and ask yourself, 'What would X do in this situation?'

[(Anonymous)]

The person who believes it'd be hilarious self-insertion doesn't sound like they know or understand much about writing beyond bad fanfiction. Everything a writer writes is drawn from their own experiences, not just characters. If it's really, painfully obvious then it's badly done and might quality as that "hilarious self insertion". But most of the time this is just what writers do. How the hell else are they going to come up with material?

OP

[(Anonymous)]

Fist bump!

[(Anonymous)]

The same could be said for good actors. It probably helps their craft if they can identify with the character they're portraying on some level. But that doesn't mean if they play a villain that they're actually a horrible person.

Bad actors just end up playing themselves over and over. Sometimes it works out for them and sometimes it doesn't. Great actors can dig deep and understand their characters to be able to think and act like them (and yeah, sometimes do research), so that us (the audience) can be immersed and even fooled.

[(Anonymous)]

OP, you are exactly right, and the people who are disagreeing either don't understand what you're saying or are arguing some unrelated point. (Did you ever say you would only use your own experiences to write a character in 1st person, and refuse to do any research if it was warranted? No, I don't think I can find that part of your secret.)

Also, people who think 1st person POV is 'hilarious self insertion' are, and I say this with no exaggeration, stupid*. Don't you ever forget that, or let it stop you writing

*There is a trolly user on this comm who says they hate 1st person POV for this reason, so I don't know if it was them you were talking to, but if so, disregard their opinion on this matter. Because it is stupid, whether or not they were saying it just to stir shit.

[jaybie_jarrett]

I agree. 1st person POV is a tool that can be done well or poorly. Sometimes it works for the situation. Sometimes it doesn't.

But hell, this wouldn't be the first time a writing community dismissed a neutral writing method as bad because some poor writing misused it or used it poorly. I see this happen all the time, and it's how things get labeled as "Sue traits".

It's unfortunate but it's not surprising.

A lot of people have been talking about "writing what you know" on this thread.

[nyxelestia]

They seem to forget that we can learn things - we can know new things.

When I read the secret, I was going to ask if anyone really believed that mindset, until I read the S!B and got to this thread. Yikes.

There are many ways to write well, to write a character well, and identifying with them is one of many ways. But it's hardly the only way, and it's hardly guaranteed to ruin the way you write a character.

At most, I would suggest that because identifying with a character is so easy, writers who...still have a long way to go in developing their writing skill...are more likely to try and use character-identification as a means of writing, and this leads to the slew of self-insert and OOC fic that we in fandom often associate with it.

That's the furthest I would go with that connection.

But much of it depends on how you write a character in the first place. For me, my writing depends heavily on 'voice' - both dialogue and monologue, I show my characters by how they think and how they speak. Definitely, the easiest way to do that is to identify with a character, or even just a certain element of a character. But it's hardly the only way, and hell sometimes the only way I can make a character 'sound' good and IC is by going back and editing ruthlessly and pouring over every word and phrase to see if it fits. Both are good methods in their own ways.

People should write what they know - but that doesn't mean confining yourself to writing what you already know. It means trying to learn something before you write about it. Or imagine something so thoroughly that you understand it, know it, as if it were real. It means researching something, so that either you know how to make something realistic - or that you know what you are doing when you don't.

Write what you know, and do it by adding to what you know, so that you can write about any damn thing you want.

Re: A lot of people have been talking about "writing what you know" on this thread.

[(Anonymous)]

I think part of learning is learning how to identify with people you don't think are like you at all. Even evil ones - evil characters almost never think they're evil, they think they're right! You have to find that patch of darkness in yourself - everybody has it, somewhere. Everybody has the capacity to be cruel or violent or ruthless or arrogant or sadistic. Anybody can snap under the right circumstances. (I think it's testimony to human goodness that most people don't act on those feelings most of the time - but I've never met anybody who completely lacked them.)

I think you have to get a little bit into every character's head - how they think, how they talk, how they see the world. It's like acting, you have to become your characters a little bit. You have to find that part of yourself that's most like them, and draw on it. But I think the mistake a lot of beginning writers make is that they pick a character who they think is most like them, and then completely overdo it to the point where that character is them. They overemphasize the similarities (and romanticize the hell out of them) and don't even see the differences, much less delve into them deeply enough to make the character well-rounded as a separate person.