fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #343 ]

⌈ Secret Post #343 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

If I may direct your attention to this poll → HERE

EDIT: I removed a few secrets because it was just brought to my attention (I have a crappy memory) that people are being banned for being flagged for this kind of stuff. SORRY. D:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #049.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 2 ] not!secrets, 0 not!fandom [ 1 ] secret revisted/link to fanfiction.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Saturday, December 15th, 2007.
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I can do my best in explaining, but I'm no registered psychologist but this is something I'm rather interested in and been diagnosed with.

Men in this modern time era do not have specific gender roles since the 1960's Civil Rights movement. Men can act "girly", get manicures, dye their hair, and actually live at home and take care of the kids and men can be the working man who works out and basically runs the house.

Women follow that basic layout above. However in their frame they are now allowed to wear pants.

The separation between male and female personality types are hardly existing any more because with how each new generation has been raised.

Transgender/Transexual issues are complex. The DSM-IV states (For Gender Identity Disorder. This also follows for Transgender):

* A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.
* B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g., request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.
* C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition.
* D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
* Specify if (for sexually mature individuals) Sexually Attracted to Males, ... Females,... Both, ... Neither.

It's more then just identifying with being male or being female. (Though right now these aspects may change, it seems that there is a reform going on.) A lot of Female to Male or Male to Female transgendered people didn't have a word for it. Some believe they were freaks, others tried to achieve the desired gender but were turned down. The DSM right now is pretty harsh and plenty of psychologists, while they recognise gender identity disorder, may take months to examine a patient with this.

If I still had all my books I'd be able to talk about it more however I cannot find my citations nor my sources so a lot of this is from memory (and could be discredited but please hear me out). I recommend researching on Christine Jorgenson. She's not the first male to female transgender, but she came out with it once she returned from war. It was a huge thing considering it was from the 1950's.

Sorry about the tl;dr type post. I hope this helps a little bit.

Thanks for trying to explain it to me. I understand it's a really complex issue but I'm still getting stuck on this one point:

If a biological woman can act like a man while still identifying as a woman,
Why would a woman want to insist she is a man?

Since she can do all the same things a man can without having to be called a man...? Then the desire is down to either wishing you had the body of a man.

The wish to be a man without having or wanting the body of a man is useless if gender roles are not kept clearly separated enough to tell the difference between "masculine" and "feminine" ?

So I just don't get how a transgender individual can say "A MAN DOESN'T HAVE TO ACT MASCULINE" "...but I want to be a man." ? Unless you simply want the body of a man, that's by its very nature saying you don't want to act feminine and that you can't act masculine without being "a man", which would be asserting the very gender stereotype that is trying to be fought?

So yeah. Just confused as to this double standard? I know it's a confusing issue, but it'd be nice if the very individuals who should know the most about it weren't equally or more confused than me. I would think you'd have to either hold stereotypical gender definitions and then say "I want to be the other gender" or say you're fine with whatever gender you are because gender doesn't dictate anyone's actions or manners?

I don't think you can both say masculine/feminine has nothing to do with one's gender AND say "but I want to be the other gender I just asserted has no actual behavioral difference from my current gender" ? Just to me, logically, you would either have to choose one or the other so as not to contradict yourself.

A transgender individual can say "A man doesn't have act in a way that is stereotypically masculine" and "I want to be a man, even though I may still evince traits that are stereotypically feminine" because the traits that define "masculine" and "feminine" are many and varied, and aren't limited to stereotypes. People are not limited to stereotypes. Gender isn't a binary; much like sexuality, it is a spectrum. Most people get lucky and fall in the same general area on that spectrum physically that they do mentally; some people aren't lucky, and they have to find ways to reconcile the difference between the physical and the mental in whatever ways they can. Sometimes they have the option of surgery; sometimes they have the option of acting out as the other gender.

And wanting to physically be a man does not imply that you don't want to act feminine; all it means is that you want a male body. Sometimes people are just physically uncomfortable in their bodies, and that's why they want/need to be a different gender.

The fact that people who want male bodies also often want to be able to act "masculine" doesn't mean the two automatically correlate. Behavior is separate from appearance, even if we tend to assume that the one informs the other. I think that's the issue that people are getting so up in arms about over this: the assumption is that if people look a certain way, they will act a certain way; thus, if they want to look a certain way, they must want to act a certain way, as well.

As a quiet looking intellectual who listens to death metal and prog rock, I would like to point out that appearances can be deceiving. :) The issue you seem to be having comes down to appearance vs behavior, and you keep throwing the word "stereotypes" around. Haven't we all had to watch the after school special about stereotypes? You know, the one that goes, "Stereotypes are bad, kids. Don't make generalizations about minority groups."

We have men who aren't "masculine" by the general stereotype. I mean considering my stature I'm not going to be the rough, tough burly kinda guy. I do want to be a man in actions, nature, and body but it's a matter. As the anon stated most often a transgendered individual wants to act like that gender. There are a few who do not cross the supposed attitude barriers but that also falls true to those who are genuinely male or female who are indeed the complete opposite of their gender stereotype.

Also everyone is a walking contradiction whether it's mentally or physically. It's not like humans don't contradict themselves.

I must admit that everything I want to say was said better by Anonymous above me, and I hope that helps a bit more too.

Thank you for being civil! I'm rather grateful for this.

Edited 2007-12-16 07:22 (UTC)

[ SECRET POST #343 ]

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