fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #343 ]

[ SECRET POST #343 ]

⌈ Secret Post #343 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

If I may direct your attention to this poll → HERE

EDIT: I removed a few secrets because it was just brought to my attention (I have a crappy memory) that people are being banned for being flagged for this kind of stuff. SORRY. D:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #049.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 2 ] not!secrets, 0 not!fandom [ 1 ] secret revisted/link to fanfiction.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Saturday, December 15th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: ~~here~~ CLOSED.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Whoa whoa wait a second I think I need something explained to me.

I've been reading the comments on this secret, and people are apparently pissed off about it because:

1) You can be a male stuck in a female body.
2) You don't have to be stereotypically masculine while being a man.

BUT.

If being masculine =/= acting like a "man", and FTMs want to be males who aren't masculine, then

W-Why do you want to be a man in the first place??

Because when you deny traditional "masculine" and "feminine" definitions then being a male simply means having a penis.

Which you will never have, if you were born female? Which would make identifying as a male even though you are in a female body completely worthless, most especially if you're going to act stereotypically female anyways? (What I mean is, the act of giggling or using smilies, while not limited to females, is traditionally a "feminine" act?)

I don't know, I think my logic is pretty sound on this one.

If man =/= "masculine" person then
man = penis but
female body =/= penis
therefore
female body + man-identification =/= LOGICAL

So right now transgenders are kind of on par with anorexics in my mind. I can't really see how denying the body you were born in to the point of damaging your body physically to obtain said unrealistic wish for your body is healthy at all.

Clearly you don't understand how complex gender identity can be.

Feminine = culturally defined view of how a woman should act

But if a woman can act however she wants regardless of what is feminine and masculine

Why does she need to call herself a man to do so?

I don't know how much more "complicated" I need to be with this question. Saying "lol ur wrong" without explaining why I'm wrong is worthless and helps nobody, least of all yourself. I will continue to not understand just how "complex" this mystical gender identity is, and you will continue to be misunderstood, and the only thing that will have happened is that we both walk away with a more bitter view of the other.

So you can continue to be negative, ignore me completely, or answer my question.

a woman can act however she wants regardless of what is feminine and masculine

Okay, attempting to explain this in simple words: What if she, however she acts, *feels* like a man? If she has always wanted to be or felt like she was male?

This may get me flamed a bit myself, but I kind of empathise with transexuals because, whenever one describes their experiences or identity issues, it reminds me of how I feel about being sterilised.

I want my tubes tied and my uterus rendered nonfunctioning to the point where I am willing to pay a doctor to have it done to me. Not because I'm "confused" and want to "damage" my body; because as a human being, what I think and what I feel determine what I am, not my cells. In my head, I am sterile. I have never imagined any future in which I have children. I regard motherhood with horror. I think pregancy is disgusting. I used to think that I should have twins, just to "get it over with all at once", before I figured out that I didn't have to get-married-and-have-kids-and-be-a-mommy. Every answer I ever gave to "what do you want to be when you grow up?" was something active -- kids were never in that picture, even though it took me years to realise they weren't in it. In my head I am a nonmother, and I want (I WILL) impose that upon my body as soon as I can talk a doctor into it.

If you believe in a soul, call it that. If not, call it the self -- whatever it is in human beings that lets us add up our emotions, logic, and experiences and make a decision or come to a conclusion about it. My soul/self isn't interested in motherhood. And my soul/self is more important, and a much greater part of "who I am", than my body. Bodies change all the time -- twenty years ago I was one foot tall; ten years ago I was blonde; last month I didn't have a visible waist; in twenty years my reproductive hormones will take a 180-degree turn; in forty years I might be blind. Inside all of that I'll still be "me". Time is going to change my body in drastic and often inconvenient ways; I don't see why I shouldn't change it in relatively small, pleasing ones.

Anorexics actually harm themselves with anorexia, and a lot of times, do so while aiming at a goal that is unrealistic or impossible.
Also, don't sex change operations exist? Safe ones?
Men don't have to be masculine to be male. They can still identify themselves as a male.
Females don't have to be feminine to be female. They can still identify themselves as a female.
I hate, just hate, the way some people decide that a male or a female must act in certain ways due to their genitals. It doesn't work that way. No, I'm not aiming that specifically at you.
Some females identify themselves as male. It doesn't matter is that person is masculine or feminine. They still identify themselves as a male. If you switch around the genders in that statement, it's still true.
Maybe in some cases the circumstances are weird and the person could be twisted because of this, but I don't think it is an absolutely harmful thing, like the way anorexia is definitively harmful.
So, gender and the like is really complicated and confusing. The end.

That's what I'm saying-

If a man doesn't have to act masculine to be male, and a woman doesn't have to act feminine to be female, then why does a woman have to identify as male when they can do all the exact same things a "male" does?

If you take away stereotypical gender definitions, identifying yourself as one or the other is pointless?

Then it comes down to trying to get the opposite gender's body, which is very difficult? And with other people who try to get a body completely different from the one they were born with (people who cut their tongues to be like a snake, etc etc) we say "man that's completely crazy" ...so I don't get this leniency with people who want their opposite gender's body, either.

No offense, but do some research next time. It's far more complex than that. And so what if they don't follow stereotypes - look at American culture right now. It's slowly getting so ambiguous, that you cannot really say "oh, that's a male trait" or "oh, that's a female trait."

...that's the point I was trying to make?

If a "male" doesn't have to act "masculine" then why do they need to call themselves "female" to act feminine? A man can play with ponies and bake pie and wear pretty dresses and sparkly earrings all he wants? Why does he need to call himself a woman to do so?

Then it simply comes down to wanting boobies and stuff, and with other people who want different bodies from the ones they're naturally capable of, we go "man that's crazy you should just be happy with your own body"

I would think what needs to change isn't the individual's identification as a male or female, but society's definitions of male and female, which is, by your admission, already so ambiguous that it doesn't even matter? For the average joe, hearing "I'M REALLY A MAN but i like to wear aprons and bake pie tee hee :) also I have a vagina" just sounds. Crazy.

I can do my best in explaining, but I'm no registered psychologist but this is something I'm rather interested in and been diagnosed with.

Men in this modern time era do not have specific gender roles since the 1960's Civil Rights movement. Men can act "girly", get manicures, dye their hair, and actually live at home and take care of the kids and men can be the working man who works out and basically runs the house.

Women follow that basic layout above. However in their frame they are now allowed to wear pants.

The separation between male and female personality types are hardly existing any more because with how each new generation has been raised.

Transgender/Transexual issues are complex. The DSM-IV states (For Gender Identity Disorder. This also follows for Transgender):

* A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.
* B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g., request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.
* C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition.
* D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
* Specify if (for sexually mature individuals) Sexually Attracted to Males, ... Females,... Both, ... Neither.

It's more then just identifying with being male or being female. (Though right now these aspects may change, it seems that there is a reform going on.) A lot of Female to Male or Male to Female transgendered people didn't have a word for it. Some believe they were freaks, others tried to achieve the desired gender but were turned down. The DSM right now is pretty harsh and plenty of psychologists, while they recognise gender identity disorder, may take months to examine a patient with this.

If I still had all my books I'd be able to talk about it more however I cannot find my citations nor my sources so a lot of this is from memory (and could be discredited but please hear me out). I recommend researching on Christine Jorgenson. She's not the first male to female transgender, but she came out with it once she returned from war. It was a huge thing considering it was from the 1950's.

Sorry about the tl;dr type post. I hope this helps a little bit.

Thanks for trying to explain it to me. I understand it's a really complex issue but I'm still getting stuck on this one point:

If a biological woman can act like a man while still identifying as a woman,
Why would a woman want to insist she is a man?

Since she can do all the same things a man can without having to be called a man...? Then the desire is down to either wishing you had the body of a man.

The wish to be a man without having or wanting the body of a man is useless if gender roles are not kept clearly separated enough to tell the difference between "masculine" and "feminine" ?

So I just don't get how a transgender individual can say "A MAN DOESN'T HAVE TO ACT MASCULINE" "...but I want to be a man." ? Unless you simply want the body of a man, that's by its very nature saying you don't want to act feminine and that you can't act masculine without being "a man", which would be asserting the very gender stereotype that is trying to be fought?

So yeah. Just confused as to this double standard? I know it's a confusing issue, but it'd be nice if the very individuals who should know the most about it weren't equally or more confused than me. I would think you'd have to either hold stereotypical gender definitions and then say "I want to be the other gender" or say you're fine with whatever gender you are because gender doesn't dictate anyone's actions or manners?

I don't think you can both say masculine/feminine has nothing to do with one's gender AND say "but I want to be the other gender I just asserted has no actual behavioral difference from my current gender" ? Just to me, logically, you would either have to choose one or the other so as not to contradict yourself.

A transgender individual can say "A man doesn't have act in a way that is stereotypically masculine" and "I want to be a man, even though I may still evince traits that are stereotypically feminine" because the traits that define "masculine" and "feminine" are many and varied, and aren't limited to stereotypes. People are not limited to stereotypes. Gender isn't a binary; much like sexuality, it is a spectrum. Most people get lucky and fall in the same general area on that spectrum physically that they do mentally; some people aren't lucky, and they have to find ways to reconcile the difference between the physical and the mental in whatever ways they can. Sometimes they have the option of surgery; sometimes they have the option of acting out as the other gender.

And wanting to physically be a man does not imply that you don't want to act feminine; all it means is that you want a male body. Sometimes people are just physically uncomfortable in their bodies, and that's why they want/need to be a different gender.

The fact that people who want male bodies also often want to be able to act "masculine" doesn't mean the two automatically correlate. Behavior is separate from appearance, even if we tend to assume that the one informs the other. I think that's the issue that people are getting so up in arms about over this: the assumption is that if people look a certain way, they will act a certain way; thus, if they want to look a certain way, they must want to act a certain way, as well.

As a quiet looking intellectual who listens to death metal and prog rock, I would like to point out that appearances can be deceiving. :) The issue you seem to be having comes down to appearance vs behavior, and you keep throwing the word "stereotypes" around. Haven't we all had to watch the after school special about stereotypes? You know, the one that goes, "Stereotypes are bad, kids. Don't make generalizations about minority groups."

We have men who aren't "masculine" by the general stereotype. I mean considering my stature I'm not going to be the rough, tough burly kinda guy. I do want to be a man in actions, nature, and body but it's a matter. As the anon stated most often a transgendered individual wants to act like that gender. There are a few who do not cross the supposed attitude barriers but that also falls true to those who are genuinely male or female who are indeed the complete opposite of their gender stereotype.

Also everyone is a walking contradiction whether it's mentally or physically. It's not like humans don't contradict themselves.

I must admit that everything I want to say was said better by Anonymous above me, and I hope that helps a bit more too.

Thank you for being civil! I'm rather grateful for this.

Edited 2007-12-16 07:22 (UTC)

Your logic, it is not sound. Sorry dude.

plz to explain why logic is not sound or logic will continue to operate in said way

Actually, I think we're more like theists. Equally illogical, but more accepted. I mean, how can there be an omnipotent, omniscient God who is limited by an opposing force of evil (Satan)?

Human behavior is weird and nonsensical in general when you apply Aristotelian logic to it. "Start a war to end war" would be another example.

lol guys way to miss my point.

My point was, if you can act like a stereotypical man as a woman, then why do you need to identify as a "man" when a "woman" can act the exact same way as said "man" would?

You can't hold that "Males can act like females if they want to" and say "but I want to identify as a man"... ...because under that view of gender identity, if a male can act female, then why would they need to BE female to act "female"? They can still call themselves a man but wear pretty pretty dresses and play with ponies for all I care?

It's the definition that needs to change in that case, not your gender? It sounds backwards to go "I'M A MAN IN A WOMAN'S BODY ...BUT ACTUALLY I STILL ACT LIKE YOUR SIMPLE IDEA OF A WOMAN" ...no, how about you just say I'm a human being with a vagina but I don't like it that much and want to get it changed? Insisting that you're a man stuck in a woman's body while saying "lol but a man can act feminine if he wants" just sounds...crazy. You're asserting the very gender stereotype you're trying to break free from?

Unless the only object of desire is a penis, in which case you will never get a working one with current medical science? I guess you can get rid of your boobs if you want. I hear about men grinding their pelvises down to obtain a feminine "identity" that's completely out of reach for their bodies without SCRAPING HALF THEIR PELVIS OFF and it's like whoa whoa whoa you can wear all the dresses you want, why do you need to chop off half your body to do so?? Aside from that what is it about being "female" when you are biologically SET as being a male that you want?

So if gender identity =/= "stereotypical definitions of being male/female, i.e. the man hunts and the female cooks and all that bullshit"

Then gender identity comes down to whether or not one has a dick, which is set by biology, and which changing is very painful?

So I just don't understand. With anorexics and even people wanting size DD boobs, we say "what the hell just be happy with the body you have" ...but when someone goes "HELP HELP I'M A WOMAN STUCK IN A MAN'S BODY" it's suddenly okay for them to lop off their dick and shave off half their pelvis because "gender can be anything you want it to be!! 8D" ???

So I don't understand at all. Aside from wanting your body to be something it's not, what else is there to this?? AGAIN, if you have a dick you can certainly wear dresses, and if you've got a vagina you can stomp around shooting deer for all I care. But if you assert that having a penis doesn't necessarily mean you have to shoot deer, then why would you need a penis to be what society defines as a "man" aside from just wanting the penis that you can't realistically have?? In that case it would simply be the gender definition that needs to be changed, not what gender you think of yourself as?? (As in, wouldn't it be easier to tell people that women can drive fast cars than to say I'm a man but I'd still like to giggle and cook pie ps I have a vagina too" ???)

I've had thoughts like these--I think optimally, in a society completely free of gender-related stereotypes, that people wouldn't feel a need for sex change. But people get impressions even at a young age that what they're doing is "right" or "wrong" for their sex--and it's relaxing more, yes, but the stereotypes are still there (because, as a general predictor, the actually usually do work), and so people feel like since what they are doing is "wrong" for their sex, it must be their sex that's wrong. I'm not sure it's quite comparable to anorexia and DD breast surgery (different motivations and different health risks), but I do think it's kind of sad that some people feel like they don't belong in their own body.

"Then gender identity comes down to whether or not one has a dick..."

No. There is more to gender identity than being able to act in stereotypically masculine or feminine ways; there is more to gender identity than the physical gender of one's body; there is more to gender identity than the way society perceives a person based on their gender. There is more to gender identity than being male or female. The fact that you continue to insist on simplifying the issue is mildly insulting (only mildly, because I'm assuming you aren't a troll).

Despite the fact that gender roles are less restrictive in modern society than they have been in the past, they are still very clearly defined- so, no, a woman can not act the same way a man does, not without having to justify herself first. And no, a man can't put on dresses and prance around baking pies, not in public, not without facing serious ramifications and potential bodily injury. You may not care if a woman wants to drive fast cars or shoot deer, but society does.

Yes, it would be nice if we could abolish gender roles and and redefine gender as something other than the very limiting binary that it is most frequently defined as today. But barring a sudden, world-wide paradigm shift or another hundred years of civil rights movements, that isn't going to happen on any large scale any time soon.

(Long parenthetical alert! Comparing transgenderism with anorexia, and equating anorexia with breast implants, only works insofar as all three situations imply some level of body dysmorphia. Anorexia is an obsessive-compulsive disease that only ends when a person dies, or seeks treatment. Transgenderism doesn't lead a person to compulsively self-harm, and it has a "stopping point," so to speak: a person can reach their desired gender. It can be difficult, but it can be done; an anorexic, on the other hand, can never reach their "ideal" weight. As for breast implants- women have myriad reasons for getting them, and yeah, some reasons are better than others, but plastic surgery isn't inherently crazy. It may be indicative of a lot of what is wrong with society and modern standards of beauty, but that's a rant for a whole 'nother parenthetical.)

I would suggest, as others have, that you do some actual research into gender identity and transexualism, as it's very clear that you have done little to no research in this area. (If you had, for instance, you would know that it is possible, through surgery and hormone therapy, for FTM transexuals to have working male genitalia; FTMguide.org (http://www.ftmguide.org/) has some of the technical details, if you're curious.) It would be more useful to you than waiting for someone on this community to answer your questions, and would be infinitely less frustrating to those of us who are assuming the length of your comments mean you do actually want to learn about this. Wiki "gender identity disorder" to start, followed by "transgender." Livejournal also has numerous transgender communities that should be full of information.

When you're done with that, and you're still having trouble understanding why people will go to such lengths to eliminate dischord between their physical selves and their mental perceptions of theirselves, you might find body modification a somewhat enlightening direction of study- or potentially incredibly squicky, so I offer that suggestion with a huge caveat. Body dysmorphic disorder would be another topic to look into, though I haven't been able to find much on teh internets that is terribly useful in that area.

I honestly find your obstinate confusion completely baffling, so I apologize if this response is less than helpful to you. But if you're seriously looking for information on gender identity and trans issues, fandomsecrets really isn't the best place to start.

I think I love you, Anonymous.

^_^

For you. Anonymous.

Thank you!

And I personally don't get the Western obsession with the body as sanctuary either. I think the essential self is in the MIND.

I think it's because some people don't have an idea of how serious transsexualism actually is, especially the fandom trannies that plague my existence.. For a boob job, you don't need to get psychological help or a "real life test" to see how your new boobs would affect other people. For anorexia, you need psychological help to prevent you from dying. (For me, that's the difference between transsexualism and anorexia- your health is at risk.)

And sex=/=gender. It is theoretically possible for one's genitalia to be one sex and their brain more like the other (because we don't think with our crotch). Plus there are such a thing as intersexed individuals. (I personally don't really subscribe to the theory that men and women are basically the same mentally, even if it's not really PC to do so.)

And what would you do if you woke up one day as a member of the opposite sex, and there was nothing else you could do to get your old, comfortable body back save sex reassignment? Woudl you do it?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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