[ SECRET POST #2839 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2839 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 060 secrets from Secret Submission Post #406.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[feotakahari]

If it's taken as a critique of gender roles, it's still chickening out to not, you know, actually stick with your critique of gender roles. You can have a character be "Fine, I'm female and proud of it!" without putting her in a dress.

[(Anonymous)]

What are you even talking about? Nowhere in her story (that I recall) did it ever imply that Naoto hated feminine things, just that she initially felt uncomfortable because she wasn't used to them - which makes perfect sense given how much time she'd spent pretending to be a man.

It's not somehow going against a critique of gender roles to have her decide that she's actually okay with being feminine.

[(Anonymous)]

putting a character in a dress doesn't invalidate the idea that her character critiques gender roles. it's just a fucking dress

[(Anonymous)]

Why? Because a dress somehow invalidates that? No, seriously. You are falling into the pitfall of "typically masculine = good, typically feminine = bad" and it's really gross.

[(Anonymous)]

yeah, I don't think they meant for it to come off that way but thinking that putting Naoto in a dress means that the game makers were "chickening out" out on commenting on traditional gender roles is pretty dumb. I think it was just the creators' way of pointing out that Naoto had been rejecting "girly" things for so long because she associated femininity with being weaker than men and a hindrance to her ambition but then later realized that it wasn't healthy to reject certain things solely because they're associated with femininity

[feotakahari]

Then have your Naoto. Naoto is great. Naoto is wonderful. My problem was more with Rise, and Yukiko, and to a certain extent even that nurse in the Devil social link. I just wanted more characters to actually address their problems at the root, not just say "Oh, if I look at it this way, it's not a problem anymore and it magically stops bothering me."

[(Anonymous)]

But that's how life works. Yukiko's problem was that she didn't feel like she had a choice, except she realized she DID. She wanted to run away because she wanted the ability to control her future, not because she didn't want to run the inn. The caged bird motif is because she felt trapped because she felt there weren't any choices being handed to her. her entire Social Link was about her realizing, no, she had a choice the entire time, she just never saw it.

Rise, likewise, didn't want to stop being an idol. She wanted to be herself. They didn't necessarily need to exclude each other. And that's the entire point to her Shadow being a stripper! "Exposing herself" was a metaphor for "see the real me, not just the idol." And her Social Link was realizing she could be bot herself and the idol and they didn't have to be two different people. So she went back to being an idol--just she acted far different to how she did before.

They did address the root. You just didn't like what the root problem was, or the fact they made the choices they did because it didn't fit with your perception of what the problem was.

[feotakahari]

Fuck it. I never say these things right when I talk. The fic I've been writing is about this kind of thing, so maybe I can show it even if I can't find the words to tell it.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for not answering. I get being disappointed, but they in no way chickened out just because you didn't like how things turned out.

[scrubber]

Haha, I'm so sorry the responses you got missed the point so hard because fact of the matter is P4 did chicken out with it's characters a little. All these teenagers with all these issues conflicting with expectations of others and coincidentally their final choices (and what ultimately makes them happy) all fall in line with what society wants from them anyway. I love Persona 4, but this aspect is really obvious.

Naoto could've been the boldest character in this regard but that honor will have to go to Kanji because Naoto's narrative was still undermined by various bits of sexist crap that leaked into her story. One of those bits does include the fact that in her romance route you can have her dress up in a girl's uniform for you, which was really just fanservice for the guys who wanted reassurance that yes, Naoto is indeed a girl beneath it all. Her surface level rejection of femininity just makes her feminine moments all the more appealing. Like the fact that her boobs are the biggest of the girls, for some reason. That's like a joke from a hentai.

This happens all the time with masculine female characters. That people are seriously saying "what's wrong with Naoto in a dress????" is so silly because what's wrong with Naoto NOT in a dress ever? Apparently something, because shit like that will never happen. Let us all put our heads together and think of why that might be.

[(Anonymous)]

TBH it feels like they were always going to get criticized for chickening out because different people want different, and mutually exclusive, things from the character.

[scrubber]

Maybe having a variety of outcomes instead of all the characters not changing the status quo (except their own inner feelings) even a tiny bit would've been a start.

[(Anonymous)]

The thing is, it shouldn't be a big deal she's in a dress. But people make it a big deal. And also? No, it wasn't fanservice, despite poor localization! That entire moment was about Naoto being comfortable with no longer outwardly identifying as a boy.

But yes, they chickened out. Despite calling out some heavy fucking sexism in a lot of places. But because they didn't do what you wanted to do, they chickened out. Despite Rise deciding to use her status as an idol to help little girls be comfortable with themselves. Despite Chie realizing she didn't have to change because being an Ideal Woman didn't matter. Despite Yukiko realizing that she could walk out at any time if she became actually dissatisfied with her life. But nope, because they didn't run away from their problems outright by quitting, they chickened out.

[scrubber]

If it shouldn't have been a big deal, why did it happen? What did it prove? Why is there yet another arc of a tomboy showing her feminine side as proof of growth and depth? Do you think this is a coincidence? If Naoto was a male there would be no such expectation, that only exists because she's female and needs to prove it, or she's obviously missing something. The options in the game where you pressure Naoto into being more feminine are presented without judgement or consequence, because the writers sympathize with that desire.

Look, Persona as a whole took some great steps forward. It did a lot of things right. That doesn't mean it's perfect, it dropped the ball in places. Just because something makes you feel good doesn't mean it's beyond criticism.

I'm glad you agree they chickened out though. I mean, that much was obvious.

[feotakahari]

Thank you. That helped a lot.

This really is something I'm trying to address in my fic. I've got one character who does come to terms with her identity, and doesn't really change. Another character changes quite a bit, and another realizes she doesn't need to decide just yet what she is, and all of them are fine and okay.

[scrubber]

God, did you hurt yourself coming up with all of these different resolutions? Apparently it's a lot of work.

[feotakahari]

In a sense. Some of them were inspired by fics that were physically painful to read. (One of the "villain" characters argues for forced total integration of cultural minorities, destroying every aspect of their culture that makes them different. She was inspired by a bad characterization of Princess Celestia. I wish I was kidding.)